Speaker Wiring Question

[Coach]

What is the best way to wire 5 speakers to a single 4 channel amp. We are talking about 2- 6.5's 2- 6x9's and a single sub. Is it better to run the 4 speakers in parallel or better in series. I actually have the wiring figured out to the amp and the sub, but am wondering about the configuration to the 4 main speakers. From what I have read wiring the speakers in parallel would reduce the resistance and lower it to 2 ohms vs in series it would remain at 4 ohms. Does this seem correct? I am trying to achieve maxium power out of the amp without working it so hard it will clip or shut down. I realize the best route is two amps but for now this will have to do.
[ February 05, 2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Coach ]

[rivercrazy]

What you need to do is wire the 4 main speakers to the front channel wired in Parallel and the sub to the rear channel bridged (4 ohm mono)

[ROZ]

The problem with wiring it in this configuration(mixed mono) is that you're going to loose the use of the amp's rear crossover, as it will have to be run full pass. This means that whatever speakers you wire into the same channels as the subwoofer will play the full frequency range. Unless you use an external crossover to remove the low freq.'s from these speakers, they may distort when you raise the stereo's volume. It's just the opposite the subwoofer. You'd have to externally cross atleast 150hz and up out of the speaker. Dialing in the rear channels can become a pain in the a$$.
.02
Chris

[rivercrazy]

Yup. Thats the big disadvantage of a 4 channel amp running all those speaka's! The best solution is always to throw more MONEY at it with a subwoofer amp!

[DUCKY]

Depends on what amp he has. I have a large JBL 4 channel, and it has separate x-overs for each set of outputs. I run mixed mono with only 1 pair of RCA's in, with two pairs of 6.5" separates and two 10's with no external x-overs for the subs. My mids and highs have caps, but that's it.

[Spirit of Discovery]

When you're wiring, just be careful with applying the heat-shrink tubing. I get the bone-head award for my wiring repair job in my '69 Corvette Roadster. I was fixing a loose wire on a speaker and replacing the heat-shrink at the connector. I didn't have a heat gun, so I used one of those mini-torches. I thought I was being careful. About five minutes later, while tinkering under the car, I smelled smoke. "That smells just like a car fire", I thought to myself. the smell got stronger and stronger and then I saw the smoke pouring through the firewall. I crawled out from underneath, and the entire inside looked like a boiling cauldron. Burned that baby clean out from the firewall to the rear axle. Now I'm Vettless, but smarter for it!! cry

[ROZ]

Spirit of Discovery:
When you're wiring, just be careful with applying the heat-shrink tubing. I get the bone-head award for my wiring repair job in my '69 Corvette Roadster. I was fixing a loose wire on a speaker and replacing the heat-shrink at the connector. I didn't have a heat gun, so I used one of those mini-torches. I thought I was being careful. About five minutes later, while tinkering under the car, I smelled smoke. "That smells just like a car fire", I thought to myself. the smell got stronger and stronger and then I saw the smoke pouring through the firewall. I crawled out from underneath, and the entire inside looked like a boiling cauldron. Burned that baby clean out from the firewall to the rear axle. Now I'm Vettless, but smarter for it!! cry jawdrop

[ROZ]

DUCKY:
Depends on what amp he has. I have a large JBL 4 channel, and it has separate x-overs for each set of outputs. I run mixed mono with only 1 pair of RCA's in, with two pairs of 6.5" separates and two 10's with no external x-overs for the subs. My mids and highs have caps, but that's it. Actually it doesn't matter which amp he has. If subs and mid/highs share speaker outputs, you're going to need a way to externally crossover the speakers to given frequencies. You say it yourself in your last sentence. Even it's the least effecient way to crossover the subs, I'd use a coil to cross the highs out of the subs to keep them from playing higher frequencies.
.04
Chris
P.S. I run mixed mono configuration in my truck. Seperates and a 10 off a 2 channel amp. The amp's crossover is useless in this case. Seperates have the MFG's crossover network, and the sub has a coil that has a cutoff point of 150hz.

[ROZ]

Coach,
If it's only temporary, why not run the 6.5's(if coaxial) off the head unit, the 6x9's parallel off the front channels, and the sub off the rear channels bridged?

[Froggystyle]

Not to jump in to a fray here, but I see a possible mis-communication developing.
Do your front channels have a high pass crossover?
Do your rear channels have a low pass crossover?
If the answer is yes and yes, I would say that crossing everything below 250 mhz to the front channels out, and running them parallel will get you decent range from them, yet eliminating some mid-bass that your 6x9's could possibly provide. You will however have reasonably non-distorted sound all the way up. You would then cross your rear's at a max of 150 lets say, and your subs would sound good in their range. You would run the fronts at 2 ohms (if your amp can handle it) and mono the rear to whatever load your speakers are rated at. If your amp is bridgeable in the rear, with a crossover I think this would sound just fine.
I have a POS amp in my Durango right now running the front and rear components off of the front two channels, crossed over at 200+ mhz, and a single 10" running bridged on the rear two channels. Sounds great for what it is.
Just my .02, as usual.

[ROZ]

Froggy,
You're forgetting the 6.5's that he wants to run in conjunction with the sub(s). Mixed mono on the rear channel. Any crossover cutoff will either limit the subs or satellites that would share these channels.
.10
Chris

[Coach]

The Head unit has a high and low pass filter on both the front and rear. Is this the crossover you are speaking of?
The biggest problem I see right now is that the boat is already wired and I don't want to have to rewire everthing. It would seem to me that I can conect my rear speakers positives and negatives together (creating a parallel circit) on one channel and the front speaker do the same on the other channel and bridge the Sub.
The amp we have is a Pioneer 480x4. It shows how to run the 3 channel configuration. I know in my boat everything is running off the front channel and I have two smaller speakers running off the deck on the rear channel. Does it make a difference about the front and rear channels.

[1stepcloser]

I believe what he wants to do is run all four satellites to the front two channels of his amp, and use the rear two channels, bridged into one, for the sub.
If this is correct, then I will throw my dime in here and say yes you can do that.
Connect the positive of the right rear speaker to the positive of the right front speaker, and do the same with the negative terminals. This will net you an approx. 2 ohm load to the amp. Do the same with the left two speakers.
Using a 4 ohm sub will present the proper load to the rear two channels.
While this isnt the best way to configure the system, it will do what you want it to do, and allow you to use the amp's internal crossovers for the satellites as well as the sub. Just make sure that the amp will have some way to shed heat, even a small cooling fan if possible as it will generate heat configured this way.
I think. wink

[Froggystyle]

ROZ:
Froggy,
You're forgetting the 6.5's that he wants to run in conjunction with the sub(s). Mixed mono on the rear channel. Any crossover cutoff will either limit the subs or satellites that would share these channels.
.10
Chris Didn't sound like that to me. I thought he was going to parallel the 6.5's and the 6x9's, and run the sub off of the other, rear channels?

[Stupid Fast]

What about one of these:
http://pix.crutchfield.com/lifestyle/2000/l127TM100.jpeg
"The PAC TM-100 Tri-Way crossover allows you to power a pair of stereo speakers and a subwoofer simultaneously from a Tri-Way compatible 2-channel amp. It's a cost-effective way to drive a subwoofer"
It runs about 30 bucks. I have never used one but It may work running off the front or rear channels. I don't know how they sound but for $30 i would try it.

[wetandwild]

Make sure you check your impedence on your amp and speakers or else you will blow up your amp.If your speakers are rated for 8ohms and you paralalle them then will become 4ohms,if your amp is 8ohms output again you can overheat the amp because to much current is being drawn from power output stage.series is just 8+8=16ohms/8devided by 2 is 4ohms,get the idea.Any questions call me at 323-687-9837 ask for John Case. eek!

[Froggystyle]

wetandwild:
Make sure you check your impedence on your amp and speakers or else you will blow up your amp.If your speakers are rated for 8ohms and you paralalle them then will become 4ohms,if your amp is 8ohms output again you can overheat the amp because to much current is being drawn from power output stage.series is just 8+8=16ohms/8devided by 2 is 4ohms,get the idea.Any questions call me at 323-687-9837 ask for John Case. eek! What auto amps are you using that are 8 ohms?

[ROZ]

NEVERMIND I HAD SOME SERIOUS BRAIN GAS
Froggy I re read his post and NOW see that he's trying to wire 2 pair of apeakers and a sub. :o I thought he was trying to run 3 pair of speakers and a sub off 1 4chanel amp.
Since he has 6.5's and 6x9's. Provided his amp is 2 ohm stable he needs to wire the 6.5's in parallel to the left front channel, and the 6x9's in parallel to the right front channel. He can bridge the sub for the rears. All crossovers are then functional.
Froggy, I think wetandwild either refrencing subwoofers (2/3/4/8/12 ohms available), or he is thinking that 12v speakers are 8ohms when in fact 12v fullrange speakers are generally 3 or 4 ohms.
Sorry for any confusion :)
[ February 05, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: ROZ ]

[DUCKY]

ROZ:
DUCKY:
Depends on what amp he has. I have a large JBL 4 channel, and it has separate x-overs for each set of outputs. I run mixed mono with only 1 pair of RCA's in, with two pairs of 6.5" separates and two 10's with no external x-overs for the subs. My mids and highs have caps, but that's it. Actually it doesn't matter which amp he has. If subs and mid/highs share speaker outputs, you're going to need a way to externally crossover the speakers to given frequencies. You say it yourself in your last sentence. Even it's the least effecient way to crossover the subs, I'd use a coil to cross the highs out of the subs to keep them from playing higher frequencies.
.04
Chris
P.S. I run mixed mono configuration in my truck. Seperates and a 10 off a 2 channel amp. The amp's crossover is useless in this case. Seperates have the MFG's crossover network, and the sub has a coil that has a cutoff point of 150hz. I must have forgotten what "mixed mono" meant last night. Anyways, both pairs of separtes are running off the front two channels using the built in high pass x-over (150hz, 12db slope), and my subs are running off the rear channels using the low pass crossover (80hz, 18db slope) My rear separates were a little loud, so I used resistors to cut the power to them a little and move my soundstage forward, since I have no fader control running it this way.

[DUCKY]

wetandwild:
Make sure you check your impedence on your amp and speakers or else you will blow up your amp.If your speakers are rated for 8ohms and you paralalle them then will become 4ohms,if your amp is 8ohms output again you can overheat the amp because to much current is being drawn from power output stage.series is just 8+8=16ohms/8devided by 2 is 4ohms,get the idea.Any questions call me at 323-687-9837 ask for John Case. eek! I have never seen an auto amplifier that will only handle an 8ohm load. Most automotive speakers are 4 ohm. Most auto amps will easily handle a 2 ohm load, and some are even stable down to 1/2 ohm, although sound quality starts to drop off dramatically below 2.

[ROZ]

DUCKY
My rear separates were a little loud, so I used resistors to cut the power to them a little and move my soundstage forward, since I have no fader control running it this way. [/QB]Did you use to install? Did you go the 25watt 8ohm resistor route?
I use the JL5005 for just this reason...100x2 up front; 25x2 in the rear; 250x1 class D for the subs. :cool:

[wetandwild]

Remember everybody peak verses rms,that my friends is the diffrents and mistakes are made by assuming 2/4/8/16ohms. :cool:

[Froggystyle]

wetandwild:
Remember everybody peak verses rms,that my friends is the diffrents and mistakes are made by assuming 2/4/8/16ohms. :cool: I still don't get it? :rolleyes:

[1stepcloser]

wetandwild:
Remember everybody peak verses rms,that my friends is the diffrents and mistakes are made by assuming 2/4/8/16ohms. :cool: What? :confused:

[ROZ]

Froggystyle:
wetandwild:
Remember everybody peak verses rms,that my friends is the diffrents and mistakes are made by assuming 2/4/8/16ohms. :cool: I still don't get it? :rolleyes: God, I hope after all that has been posted in these and other forums about 12v audio that people have learned the difference between the two. Knowing the limitations of the gear you have, or anticipate purchasing, are some of the best adivice anyone can give....I think that's what he's trying to say.
Oh yea, WNW,
If everyone is to follow the rules, the repair side of your business will widdle away....lol wink :D
Bottom line is: Get it right the 1st time and they won't come back....For warranty work atleast :)

[wetandwild]

By God you've got'it.Amen!. :) :rolleyes:

[beyondhelpin]

Alright, another stereo thread! Gives me an excuse to jump in and ask a question myself! I just installed a new stero in my truck. I am running a Pioneer Premier 7400 head unit, MB Quartz 6.5 Reference component speakers, 4 channel 35 watt Kenwood bridged to 2 channels, MTX 75 watt 2 channel bridged down to power the sub, and a JL W0 12 sub in a 1.1 (ultimate is 1.5) cube box under the rear seat of my 2000 ex cab Chevy.
The problem is my sub is not as tight (a little muddled) as I would like. I had a 10" JL in for a few days and it played tight and was a good mesh for my system till high volumes and songs with heavy bass made it flutter. That is why I went with the new 12" JL. I may be to picky but I cant stand the slightly muddled bass from the 12"
Do you think a more powerful D class amp would make much difference? Would fiberfil make a difference in sub box. 1.1 cube is as big as I could get under the seat. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
Ps: I am probally going to dump the 4 channel amp for a good 2 channel also instead of bridging it. Damn if I wasnt so cheap I probally would not have this problem!! Maybe I just need to sell all my old equipment on ebay so I am not temped to use in setups that are not optimal.

[rrrr]

WTF are you guys talking about?? My Learjet AM/FM 8 track don't have any of this shit.
boxed

[Coach]

:D :D
Thanks for all the help. It helped me answer my question. Now all I need is to get the sub.

[rivercrazy]

beyondhelpin:
Alright, another stereo thread! Gives me an excuse to jump in and ask a question myself! I just installed a new stero in my truck. I am running a Pioneer Premier 7400 head unit, MB Quartz 6.5 Reference component speakers, 4 channel 35 watt Kenwood bridged to 2 channels, MTX 75 watt 2 channel bridged down to power the sub, and a JL W0 12 sub in a 1.1 (ultimate is 1.5) cube box under the rear seat of my 2000 ex cab Chevy.
The problem is my sub is not as tight (a little muddled) as I would like. I had a 10" JL in for a few days and it played tight and was a good mesh for my system till high volumes and songs with heavy bass made it flutter. That is why I went with the new 12" JL. I may be to picky but I cant stand the slightly muddled bass from the 12"
Do you think a more powerful D class amp would make much difference? Would fiberfil make a difference in sub box. 1.1 cube is as big as I could get under the seat. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
Ps: I am probally going to dump the 4 channel amp for a good 2 channel also instead of bridging it. Damn if I wasnt so cheap I probally would not have this problem!! Maybe I just need to sell all my old equipment on ebay so I am not temped to use in setups that are not optimal. Are you saying your using a 1.1 cubic foot box for a 10" sub sealed? If thats the case, my guess is the box is too big. Most sealed 10" 's call for .65 cubic feet. That might be part of the problem. Fiberfill will usually and slightly fake a too small box into a slightly larger one. You might not be giving that sub enough power is another reason. My guess is the sub would be happier with 300 watts.

[77charger]

boxed boxed boxed boxed s works welll in a small box
[ February 05, 2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: 77charger ]

[beyondhelpin]

The 10" sub I had in there for a few days was a .70 cube box. When I put the 12" sub in I built the 1.1 cube box. I am wondering also if I have enough power. Just not sure. Hate to spend where I dont need to though.
Maybe I put to much info in the first reply. Just wanted you guys to know exactly what I have so the gurus (you included) can make a informed suggestion. Thanks

[Duke]

Spirit of Discovery:
When you're wiring, just be careful with applying the heat-shrink tubing. I get the bone-head award for my wiring repair job in my '69 Corvette Roadster. I was fixing a loose wire on a speaker and replacing the heat-shrink at the connector. I didn't have a heat gun, so I used one of those mini-torches. I thought I was being careful. About five minutes later, while tinkering under the car, I smelled smoke. "That smells just like a car fire", I thought to myself. the smell got stronger and stronger and then I saw the smoke pouring through the firewall. I crawled out from underneath, and the entire inside looked like a boiling cauldron. Burned that baby clean out from the firewall to the rear axle. Now I'm Vettless, but smarter for it!! cry wow

[rivercrazy]

HAH! Me a guru? Yea Right! Im still learning too.
From what I've heard myself and from others, most JL subs have very very high quality sound. Your box sizes sound right on the mark. Just make sure they are leaking air. My opinion is that they are not seeing enough power. Sometimes when speakers are not receiving enough power at decent to high volumes, they are actually not receiving good clean power. A higher powered class D amp would probably make a substantial difference. You might look into a 600W amp. If your current sub is a single voice coil 4 ohm unit, most 600W sub amps would give em about 300 watts RMS. Then if you wanted more down the line you could add another one and the amp would see a 2 ohm load and put out a total of 600W. One really good amp you might shop around for is a JBL P600.1. They are 1 ohm stable and very reasonably priced. ROZ doesn't carry them but I'm sure he could set you up with something similar for a very good price.
My .02 cents anyway
beyondhelpin:
The 10" sub I had in there for a few days was a .70 cube box. When I put the 12" sub in I built the 1.1 cube box. I am wondering also if I have enough power. Just not sure. Hate to spend where I dont need to though.
Maybe I put to much info in the first reply. Just wanted you guys to know exactly what I have so the gurus (you included) can make a informed suggestion. Thanks
[ February 06, 2003, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: rivercrazy ]

[beyondhelpin]

Yea I have that 600.1 amp in my boat driving a pair of JL subs at 2 ohms. I agree it is a good solid amp at a very resonable price. The box is built very solid with no air leaks. That is one of the first things I checked by running my hand around it with it hitting hard. Did not feel or hear any air leaks. I just can not stand the muddled sound. Its still hits pretty hard just seems like I am always hearing that muddled sound. Maybe I am over compensating with gain or bass control to make up for lack of power. I like my bass solid and clean and I am just not getting it right.

[ROZ]

What direction is the speaker firing? Front, back,up, or down? Sometimes when the speaker is downfiring and is too close to the floor, it can sound a little distorted. 125 to 200 is perfect power for that speaker....reliably....It can handle more, but......BOOM..... wink
Also, I think the enclosure is a bit too small. Do as mentioned in a previous post and try adding fiberfill. It's not a cure all, but can help under the right conditions.
Chris
[ February 06, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: ROZ ]

[beyondhelpin]

Roz
It is down firing and is pretty close to the floor. Good suggestion. What is the minimum do you think it should be from the floor? It is carpeted do you think it would help if I covered that area with something like a plastic lamanate?

[ROZ]

BH,
I'd make sure it's atleast 1.5 in from the surround to the floor. I'll ask someone tomorrow if they think any different, but I think it's gonna need atleast that to "breathe". As far as replacing the carpet with a laminate, don't.

[ROZ]

BeyondHelpin,
Make that a two inch distance from the flooor to the speaker baffle.