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silver surfer
10-31-2003, 03:12 AM
Need suggestions on buying a hand gun for home security. I have read about safety, storage, waiting periods(joke). Any recommendations on models or selection?

Craig
10-31-2003, 03:29 AM
A friends Mom's house got broke into a few years ago and she asked the investigating officer the same question about a gun for home protection. He told her don't waste your time with a hand gun. He told ger get a 20 gauge shotgun. A burglar is more apt to flee at the sight of that shotgun due to the greater chance of the owner scoring a hit! You also reduce the chance of incidental injury to your neighbors if you have to fire it. A 9 mm can travel quite a distance through your window and do damage down the street compared to a shotgun. Who knows:confused:

wgarland
10-31-2003, 03:41 AM
Hey SS, if I were going to buy one I'd make sure it was one with a clip quick to load if need be. I guess I'm lucky living in an area where there isn't a whole lot of worry, 3 murders in 10 years I can't complain.
Bill

Casanova
10-31-2003, 05:00 AM
When I was a kid, a neighbors St. Bernard bit onto my sisters face and wouldnt let go.
Us kids couldn't do anything to help her. The dog destroyed her face. A tragedy she lives with every day.
From that point on, we've had a gun in the house.
I would never hesitate to kill a vicious dog.
I have no feelings for them or their owners.
I recomend if you have little kids, avoid revolvers. If they get a hold of it, or worse yet if their friends go snooping around and get a hold of it, it's easy to fire.
Automatics take some work to operate, and some knowledge that adds another step to their use.
I have a Glock 9mm with Extreme Terminal Penetration rounds (ETP) with a locked trigger, and the key in a secure place.
My sons had NRA safety and handeling training. Do the same for your family members. It's free.
I recomend Stevensons Gun Country in Burbank Calif. Go in, see what Automatic pistol feels comfortable to you and consider it.
They have a good attitude there and will guide you through your decision making.
They will also help you with NRA instruction.

lynden
10-31-2003, 05:08 AM
I'd have to agree on the Shotgun idea!
I've got a 12 GA. full of 00buck. I dare someone to come into my house and try to harm my family.
Dad, at the other end of the house has a .44 mag(8 inch barrel, Ruger - Dirty Harry gun) With hollow points in it that are so big you can use em for an ashtray!
Mom has a baseball bat!
BTW did I mention that I live in TX!!! Viva la NRA!!

v-drive
10-31-2003, 05:31 AM
Listen to the officer and go with the 12 guage pump. If nothing else the sound of the shell being loaded into the chamber is intimidating. Oh yeah if someone is climbing through the window make sure both feet hit the floor before firing ...v-drive

HOSS
10-31-2003, 05:40 AM
9mm,,,,,,,,,,ha,,,,,,,,,,,,we use that to shoot nutria. If you are looking at defense get a compound bow. There ain`t a gangbanger that`ll mess with ya. Looks way to painful. Get a gun rack in your truck and hang it in the back window.
Just another tip from your buddy HOSS!

Seadog
10-31-2003, 06:06 AM
I would go with a short .410 break action if you are not an expert. Not enough kick to scare the uninitiated and a tight pattern. With only one shot, there is less chance of collateral damage. If you do hit an innocent by mistake, more chance of recovery. If it is not an innocent, the fool is not going to stick around. He is either going to the hospital/morgue or the sound of the shotgun going off will scare the sh!t out of him.
If you are expert with a handgun, I would go with the Ruger 9mm auto

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
10-31-2003, 06:26 AM
Shotgun is all around best home defense, however, I keep a Smith and Wesson .40 caliber in the night stand. all around best pistol you can buy IMO. recoil not as bad as .45 or .44 which means you can get more than one ACCURATE shot. big heavy projectile with lots of knock down power. Light enough and small enough to carry on your person if you decide to get a consealed handgun liscense. (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED) I suggest you go to your local gun range and ask people if you can fire their gun (Offer to buy ammo) here in Texas people do it gladly. Try out different ones and find what you are comfortable with. I also have a GLOC 9mm although it wouldn't be my choice to take someone down. light projectile high muzzle velocity. tends to put holes in people and not knock them down. Whatever you get buy hollow point bullets for maximum effect. One more tip, in the event someone does enter your house. make sure you KILL them. I know that sounds bad, but dead people can't sue you and it has been known to happen here before. So make sure you finish the job. Oh yeah and buy an automatic not a revolver. If you do decide to take the consealed handgun course be sure to use an automatic as that qualifies you to use both revolver or automatic but if you take it with a revolver you are only liscened to carry a revolver. it is way to easy to get a revolver hammer caught on the edge of your pocket trying to get it out in an emergency situation. And as always never pull a gun unless you are fully prepared to use it. The rules that I stated apply in Texas I can't speak clearly for other states although I am sure they are the same or very similar. Good Luck!!!
Omega (likes guns and chit)

Havasu Luvr
10-31-2003, 06:35 AM
Although the thought of a shotgun is much better then a handgun with solid projectiles I would have to disagree with it. A shot gun is big and bulky and the shot pattern would be very tight in a home defense situation. I have found that a revolver (6 shot) with the first 3 rounds being "Bird Shot" is the best for home defense. Picture this; darkness and a mussle flash so big that it would scare off the intruder, no solid profectile traveling through walls and creating liability from law suits from innocent by-standers. Also, a huge shot pattern from a 4-6" barrel that will cover most of the room, so you will not have to be a "Marksman" to hit your target, just point in the general direction and pull the trigger. If the intruder is hit with only one pellet, he's going to think twice after seeing the mussle flash and the pain.
02 cent

cal-air
10-31-2003, 06:37 AM
I'd go with the shotgun........here's what I have
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/502/1195Shotgun-med.jpg

topgun
10-31-2003, 06:46 AM
If you want a handgun, I'd look at a SIG 226 or 228 or a Glock 17. I wouldn't buy Ruger for any money as Bill Ruger doesn't support gun owners rights. He was instrumental in the Hi-Cap mag ban. If you buy a handgun especially a semi auto with a double action trigger, learn how to use it! The triggers are touchy for a beginner. I'd also stick with 9mm nothing less. .40 ammo is super expensive. If you want a shotgun go with a 12 guage semi auto. My wife was 110lbs and could shoot one just fine. Shorter barrel lengths for CQB. My Glock already saved my wifes ass when 2 scumbags broke into our house during the day. She was upstairs, grabbed the Glock, put one in the pipe, and got on the horn to the police. When one of the dirtbags came into the bedroom door, there she was on the phone pointing the gun at him. He ran like a MoFo. and they both took off.

78Eliminator
10-31-2003, 06:49 AM
You know, shotguns are bad ass and will cut someone in half, but if you don't squeeze one off real quick, they are very easy to knock out of someones hands, or grab the barrel and wrestle it away. If you are buying a gun and do not have gun experience TAKE A SAFETY CLASS. All we need is more "ammunition" for the gun control liberals and I don't want to see anything bad happen to your family when you are trying to protect them!

topgun
10-31-2003, 06:51 AM
Also,
I agree with Omega Bubble Jet, If you shoot. shoot to kill. If they make it outside, drag them back in.

uvindex
10-31-2003, 06:52 AM
Lots of good points made above. However, when considering a shotgun versus a handgun for home protection, be sure to also consider: Where are you going to keep it?
We all know that storing a loaded gun where kids and others can get to it is an invitation to tragedy, not to mention against the law. I keep my loaded handgun in my nightstand in a "Quicksafe" -- a stout metal box with a pushbutton combination lock -- I can open it in about two seconds in an emergency, but I don't have to worry about a neighborhood kid finding a loaded gun and killing someone. The gun safes I've seen that are big enough for a shotgun aren't as quickly accessible, plus you typically don't keep these things right next to your bed.
Happy shopping!

beached 1
10-31-2003, 07:06 AM
If you are buying one right off the shelf, nothing beats a gun made by Sig Sauer. For home security I use a P220, .45cal. and for the wife a S&W .357 (but she shoots .38's through it). I prefer the bigger bore of a .45 than that of say a 9mm. A 9mm will make some damage no doubt, but a .45 will knock them down. Since I will be shotting at a close range more than likely, I shouldn't have to worry about acuracy very much. The wife likes the feel of the .357 but likes to shoot .38's with it beacuse the recoil is softer.
Shotguns would make a mess out of the whole house.
Also, use hollow points so as not to have the bulletts pass through the intruder and possibly screw up your furniture.
:)
Good luck! And Join the NRA!

GlastronGuy
10-31-2003, 07:34 AM
Everyone knows the sound of a pump action shotgun. Very intimidating.
The disadvantage to semi autos is that if there are just lying around waiting to be used, the spring in the clip can get weak and it may not feed properly when needed.
I have a revolver for home defense. Easy to hide/secure and it's always going to work.

burbanite
10-31-2003, 07:57 AM
Lots of good info here.
This debate has gone on for years and it all comes down to what you are comfortable handling, do you have experience with a handgun? There are ranges here that will rent handguns to you so that you can try them out to your hearts content, get one that feels comfortable and manageable.
A juiced up crackhead will hardly register a smaller cal round and there are many, many instances of these "zombies" taking 10 or more to stop them. Big rounds will have more effect but also are capable of more collateral damage, your family may be on the other side of that drywall after the bullet has exited the perps body. Hollow points do more damage internally and are more likely to stay inside.
I support the shotgun theory, you can load them with defense rounds or any combination of shot and slugs in case you need ever increasing stopping power.
I am in the process of building my new HD shotgun. It is based on the tried and true 12 guage Remington 870 pump. I am having an adapter made to fit a 6 position collapsible AR-15 buttstock to the receiver. It has a Hogue AR-15 pistol Grip, a 6 round shotshell carrier, 18" barrel, mag extension, ATI short forend that I have modified. I am adapting a full length Picatinny rail with a custom barrel clamp. I use a Eotech 551 Holographic sight system with night sight capabilities backed up by a ARMS #40 flip up rear sight and a KAC #19 flip up front.
As riodog mentioned, a light is a necessity. Someone once said that a HD gun without a light is akin to driving at night with your headlights off - not good. I have an M3 illuminator that I made a custom bracket to attach to a single lever 19S mount. When my hand is holding the forend I can toggle it with my thumb or if I am shooting weak side I can use my right forefinger. There are many lights with a remote pressure switch.
I also have a Benelli M1 Tactical, pistol grip, extended mag, 6 round shotshell carrier and a tactical sling. Semi auto and will nail anything to the wall...
I have a 44 Mag Desert Eagle, not a good carry gun nor HD weapon but is more fun than you can imagine...:D
For a carry/HD handgun my choice is a Wilson Combat 1911 CQB.
Many different ways to achieve an objective, your comfort level is paramount to your decision. The well being of you and your family must be considered so understand your weapon, keep it close but in a manner that will prevent accidents and practise all you can. Make the first shot count, close groupings to the center of mass if it takes more than one or maybe just a plain old shot high in the "10 ring" :eek:

Dave C
10-31-2003, 08:58 AM
Isn't the pistol grip shotgun illegal in Cali now? I dunno. I know the assault weapons covered alot of stuff?
Don't forget the lock or safe if you got kids. I like that push button box for the handgun.

OGShocker
10-31-2003, 09:02 AM
I don't care if you buy a .22 or a 12 gauge. The first thing I would suggest is to get down to your nearest gun range. Most of the indoor ranges out there have a rental program in place. Try different manufacturers and calibers. Even if you are a good shooter the feel of your weapon will be very important in any stressfull event. When you by your "best fit" weapon make sure you remember these three things.
1. Learn your weapon! All the things that can go wrong and how to how to fix those problems. How to clear jams and reload quickly ect...ect.
2. Practice in real world enviroments. Find a safe spot in the desert where you can "pretend" you're in your home. Target practice at seven feet will not assure you of kill shots at 20 feet.
3. NEVER pull a gun unless you are going to fire it and never fire it unless you intend to kill. I would rather be bailed out of jail than have my family and myself be ID'ed in the morgue.
Try going to the NRA website. They really have a lot of good stuff on gun safety education.
I keep a Remington 870 with my own "combat" load. I chamber a OLIN 12gauge flare, for back lighting and fear factor. Next I load number 4 shot so I can patch the holes in my walls if I miss. :D Then two rounds of .00 follow by two SLUGS.
OG (NRA Life Member) Shocker

Froggystyle
10-31-2003, 09:12 AM
I am tempted to stay clear of this question, as it would seem a lot of good information is going around already... but here is my .02
Groggy, scared and night blind??? Give me a shotgun.
If you are really, really one of the above, get yourself an aimpoint laser for said shotgun.
And, don't leave your room. They can have anything in the house, but if they poke their head in your bedroom, they want something else. Take it off.
You can call the cops on a cell, keep them out of your room. If they are already in your room, the last thing you want to do is get shot with your own pistol, so screw that. Get a shotgun, hang it under your bed or behind your headboard (like I do) and teach your kids that it is there to protect them, and if they ever, ever ever touch it without you there, they have to go live with grandma.
Being funny, but if you are going to have a home protection device, make it a scattergun.
I like the ideas with birdshot in a pistol, but most can't hit a barn if they were inside it at night with no training. I'll put money on anyone with a shotgun.
Wes

BADBLOWN572
10-31-2003, 09:15 AM
Silver, what it comes down to is what you are comfortable shooting. My suggestion is do not go with a shotgun. They are too bulky and in a panic situation they would be awkward. I would recommend a semi-auto handgun with any caliber larger than 9mm. You can keep a loaded clip, just don't slide one in the chamber. To get one in the chamber takes approx 1/2 of a second. From there, you have 10 shots to make them count. Since you live in HB, I would make a trip over to Evans Shooters World in Orange (next to the Pond). They have a large assortment of guns that are free to shoot as long as you purchase the ammo from them. Find out what gun fits your hand, is most accurate for you, etc. You don't need to go with the biggest gun or the most expensive. Get the gun that feels the best for you. I have found that the Sig228 (9mm) and the Browning .40 are best for me. I keep a high capacity magazine in the sig and a 10 round mag in the Browning. Get good ammo for self protection. I highly recommend Hydro Shock.

sorry dog
10-31-2003, 09:31 AM
My weapons of choice.
Rem. 870 Express. I load it with Turkey shot for pain and suffering- they will be immobilized but will live a few minutes while bleeding out the 50+ little holes you just made.
After that a H&K 9mm- easiest shooting 9 I've ever tried.
then AR15
or 44 mag- lotsa fire and Bang!

burbanite
10-31-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Dave C
Isn't the pistol grip shotgun illegal in Cali now? I dunno. I know the assault weapons covered alot of stuff?
Don't forget the lock or safe if you got kids. I like that push button box for the handgun.
I don't know about California specifically as I live in Indy, my 870 pump is subject to less restrictions than my Benelli semi auto therefore is a better choice as a platform for my QCB project. Unless you are a LEO or similar 18" is the minimum barrel length, I would have preferred the 14" version.
Keep things handy but safe.
Originally posted by riodog
Hey burbanite, great post ! Trouble is there's not 5 peeps here that would know what you were describing! Put it in terms that most can understand .
Riodog
riodog, this should explain it ...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/61870-med.JPG
Good advice also from Froggystyle, stay put if possible, let the police handle the situation. If you must move or things are getting out of hand you will not regret the day you decided to have a weapon that you can point, shoot and make contact. Make it count.
My shotguns have a nice compact spread at the ranges we are talking here, they will definitely stop an aggressor and keep uncontrolled, potentially lethal projectiles from harming my family and my neighbors.

Rivertoys
10-31-2003, 09:50 AM
Nothing new in this post.....12 gauge is the best for home defence IMO. Since having children, I've purchased home defence ammo, designed not to go through walls.
I like this right here (I could do w/o the pistol foregrip though)....
http://www.districorp.ca/DistriCorp%20-%20English/Accessories/tacaccess.jpg
I prefer a pump action for the home also, there's not a criminal in the country who doesn't know what that sound means. ;)
RTJas :D

Rivertoys
10-31-2003, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Froggystyle
....And, don't leave your room. They can have anything in the house, but if they poke their head in your bedroom, they want something else. Take it off.
Staying put is fine if you don't have two rooms worth of children to protect. Everybody's situation is different though.
RTJas :D

Cheap Thrills
10-31-2003, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by silver surfer
Need suggestions on buying a hand gun for home security. I have read about safety, storage, waiting periods(joke). Any recommendations on models or selection?
Absolutely ! I agree a shotgut is much better for home defense.
your aim does not have to be as accurate with a 12ga.
also less chance of rounds traveling through walls and injuring
family members . no waiting period on shotguns here.
C.T. :wink:

miller19j
10-31-2003, 10:03 AM
My overall suggestion for you though is to get a dog, even if it's a yellow lab, a decent size dog will spook most people that are going to enter a residence with the wrong intentions. Dogs have exceptional hearing as well and are usually onto a situation before you even wake up. I'm sure you've heard the urban legend, where the guy walks down stairs in the morning only to hear someone whisper "help me." There he finds his dog holding an intruder by the throat on the floor. Well that maybe in Urban Legend, but a story that happened to one of my friends in Santa Ana is he came downstairs in the middle of the night for something and when he turned on the light he saw a guy standing in the corner, with his Pit standing about 3' away.. They had been there for about an hour or so in a "mexican stand off." (interestingly enough that term actually applies in this case.. LOL) I was going to stay out of this one. But I think that this is the best suggestion yet! If you are unfamiliar with firearms don’t go out and buy one to put in the dresser for your protection. Chances are it will end up causing you more problems than good.
Just my 2 cents.

Rivertoys
10-31-2003, 10:17 AM
One more thing...
I have taken a course at Front Sight (http://www.frontsight.com/) near Las Vegas. They have an awesome firearm training complex. Anyone who is serious about using a firearm for home defence should take their tactical hand gun class. I took a different class, but sat in on part of the classroom part of that course. They were going into the legal and emotional issues associated with choosing to use a firearm for protection.
Anyway, it's great place to learn though!!! The only other thing is practice with you firearm, you need to know your weapon!!!
RTJas :D

OGShocker
10-31-2003, 10:20 AM
Accuracy through VOLUME!
http://www.motionpicturearmourer.com/images/minigun_2.jpg

eliminatedsprinter
10-31-2003, 10:22 AM
A couple of things to consider if you are thinking about using a shotgun as your primary home defense gun.
1. Long guns are more cumbersome and indoors in the confines of hallways and small rooms etc it is much more easy to disarm a person that has a long gun than a person who carries a handgun.
2. In the event of an accidental shooting the person shot has about 4 times the chance of dying if the weapon involved is a shotgun rather than a handgun. In fact I have read, in some of the better reasearch, that one of if not the major factors in the drop in accidental gun fatalities over the last 50 years has been from americans shifting to handguns from long guns for home defense. It has been estimated by some of the better reseachers in the field of criminology and gun safty etc (not the bogus reasearchers like Klien, Kellerman, etc that Handgun control inc supports) that if everyone who currently keeps a handgun for home defense was to replace it with a shotgun or a rifle the number of accidental gun deaths in this country would more than triple.
Also, although it makes since that a shotgun is scarier than a handgun the studies that have been done to date, that have attempted to look at a variety of factors in home defense have not provided any data to support the idea that one type of defense gun is more effective than any other in sucsessful home defense. The prime facter in succsessful home defense is simply have a gun in hand.
Handguns are easier to safely lock up and keep handy to use for home defense.
Anyways this is the pro handgun side of the handgun vs shotgun debate for home defense.
The bottom line is. If you actually have to shoot someone the shotgun will most likely be more effective. In most other situations the handgun will most likely be safer. I know what I have chosen for my home defense tool. It is your right to make yours.
P.S. Indoors at extreme short distances the spread pattern of shotguns is very small and the idea that all you have to do is point and shoot one to hit an attacker with a couple of pellets is nonsense.

Morg
10-31-2003, 10:31 AM
All great advice,
Essentialy this thread adds up to learning from other peoples experiences.
For years I have owned & shot guns. Last summer the local gun shop was passing out flyers for a production class, practical pistol shoot that was being held at a local range. I figured it would be fun.
When I got to the range I had the attitude of being a good shooter. I had squezzed thousands of rounds through my barreta 92F 9mm. I was actually thinking I could winn the whole deal. Guess what???
Got to the first station. Looking back at it now it was a verry basic & simple course. All you need to do is draw & aquire 3 targets on your right, 2 rounds each, re-load & get 2 rounds in each of the 3 targets on your left. Simple huh.
Nope. Squezing off rounds at the range is one thing. drawing, firing, re-loading & firing some more is a whole different deal.
I made it through the 5 stations that were set up that day. & learned a huge lesson. If I am going to keep a gun in my house for protection I have to learn how to shoot practicly. I never knew how much of a novice I was.
If you choose to have a gun in your house, you damn well better be a better shooter than the guy who breaks into your house.
Morg.

eliminatedsprinter
10-31-2003, 10:39 AM
Morg
Good post.
For about a year the pistol range I belong to had monthly practical pistol compititions that were open to all members and paying guests. They were a blast and I participated in all of them. You are right, I learned a lot from that about shooting quickly, accuratly, and while nervous.

mirvin
10-31-2003, 11:00 AM
I don't agree with the shotgun. Close quarters call for handguns, that's what they're for.
Go to the local ranges and you can rent handguns till your blue:)
Once you're trained and confident and as long as you stay in "shooting shape" (regular target and all around preparidness) you won't need to worry about "collateral damage". You need to know your chosen weapon like the back of your hand. In a time of need you can't be wondering how the safety works or whether there's a round in the chamber.
If you just want something to shove in the closet to make you feel better then by all means, get a shot gun. n I sure wouldnt' want to hope that the sound of a pump to deter a criminal. In my opinion, the sound of a shotgun pump will just bring bullets your way.
I'd recommend trying lots of different makers and calibers. If primary use is home defense, just get something you can controll. There's an old saying that goes something like "A hit with a 22 beats a miss with a 45 all day!!"
I prefer the S&W 99 .40 cal. 357/38 are good too cuz you can load em with wadd cutters or slugs.
Just my two cents!!

77charger
10-31-2003, 11:03 AM
I think i would have to agree with froggy about the shotgun.If it is for home defense i think the sound of the action would scare intruders away.If a gandgun is your choice a .357 revolver would be a good choice if you are a new shooter since you really wouldnt have to worry about a jam or misfire just pulll the trigger again.If experienced an auto is a good choice in .45 caliber.
I own quite a few guns myself and my handgun choices are .45s autos(1911 style) i have two of them for now.I have shot many but like theses guns and use them for competition(or at least i use too).
Learn to use what ever you decide to buy instead of learning when you really need to

Liberator TJ1984
10-31-2003, 11:04 AM
Bubanite's thoughts'
I am in the process of building my new HD shotgun. It is based on the tried and true 12 guage Remington 870 pump. I am having an adapter made to fit a 6 position collapsible AR-15 buttstock to the receiver. It has a Hogue AR-15 pistol Grip, a 6 round shotshell carrier, 18" barrel, mag extension, ATI short forend that I have modified. I am adapting a full length Picatinny rail with a custom barrel clamp. I use a Eotech 551 Holographic sight system with night sight capabilities backed up by a ARMS #40 flip up rear sight and a KAC #19 flip up front.
I like the AR-15 flat-top pistol Kit myself ...7 1/2" barrel
Personal setup is...above.. plus 2 - 40 rd.clips cinched together with Surefire pressure activated switch , laser and the Eotech 551
but then I live in the country so shooting thru walls if needed is not a concern:p
Seriously ; to be on the safe side if any doubts about what or who may be in question ? there are suppliers that sell Rubber buckshot shells that I would prefer to use( same thing Cop's have )
I would rather tell a friend I was sorry for shooting his Drunk ass when he kicked in my door at 3 am, than to go to a funeral.....:frown:

topgun
10-31-2003, 11:09 AM
As a sidelight to my first post, when the police came to our house after the incident, my wife was hesitant to say she pull out the Glock. I told them that she did. Both policemen responded that she should have shot him DEAD. They went on to say that when it went to the grand jury it would have been thrown out. I don't think she could have lived with it though. I taught her to aim groin level and give a double tap or empty the clip, as the gun rises with stress she would be in the kill zone. I'm partial to belt-feds myself, M240, MG3, M249, M60E3(MK43) or a PKM but thats a different story.
:D

mirvin
10-31-2003, 11:18 AM
Oh yeah, if you go with a handgun you can get a firesafe from home depot or office depot for around $100. Get the one that you can use a key or the combination. I leave my combination set so I can use the key to get in quick.

Seadog
10-31-2003, 11:23 AM
I am not a big proponent of any big bore guns for self defense, due to collateral damage potential. If I was to use a handgun for self defense, I would probaly have two guns, a .22 revolver with bird shot primary and a 9mm automatic backup. My reasoning is that there can be a chance that the person wandering around is an innocent. Not likely, but .22 birdshot is a good way to play it safe. The problem is that using a pistol for bird shot can ruin a good gun, so get a good cheap model.
I still believe that a .410 break action is best for the novice. With a handgun, they teach you to hold the blasted thing out at arms's length which is not what you need in tight spaces. A short .410 can be held at the sides making less of a target. If they charge you, the natural instinct with a pistol at arm's length is to pull in and fire. The round then goes over the head. With the .410, the reflective jerk is straight back as you fire. Also, a shotgun can be more accurate in a reflex shot, particularly if you attach a flashlight spotter to it.

burbanite
10-31-2003, 11:57 AM
You can tell that this issue is a fairly touchy one, we are conflicted by the need to keep our loved ones safe and the ramifications of our actions in doing so.
The thought of killing someone intentionally is alien to most of us.
There is sense in most of what has been said here, some are more conservative in their views than others and there are definitely many options. It all comes down to your comfort level...in a number of areas.
Some of my equipment is way over the top but that's the way most of my life is :D
The old K.I.S.S. theory works as well here as it does anywhere, if you are not well versed in the use and maintenance of firearms you need a reliable gun that will function every time.
Spend as much time at the range as you can, do your drills, look down the target and raise the gun up into your view, don't concentrate on the sights, use both eyes to line the thing up with where you want it to hit. You can do this at home from the comfort of your favorite chair.
Re-familiarize yourself with the layout of your home in the dark, you have the advantage in that respect, use it.
Respect your equipment, handle it and store it in a safe manner.
Identify your target before you pull that trigger, get a light.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
10-31-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by RiverDave
Being that you live in California I don't think killing the intruder would be in your best interest as if you can't prove (even if he is in your home) that your life was threatened your liable to be charged with manslaughter or murder etc. Not to mention ya gotta live with the fact that you took a life
when I took the concealed handgun course here in Houston there were people there that were renewing there liscenses. One man had killed an intruder. It cost him $2500 in court fees. a small price to pay for your safety and the safety of your family. However the instructor told us about a man that shot an intruder and did not kill him. The man was charged and convicted criminaly, however, the criminal also filed a CIVIL suit against the man for permanent damage to his leg. HE WON and the guy had to pay out thousands for not FINISHING THE JOB. As said before dead people can't sue. More than likely if someone is in your house to begin with they are probably armed. I still stand behind the .40 S & W. had mine for 5 years and have put hundreds of rounds through it. NO JAMS yet!!!!:D To all of those that think a .44 or .45 caliber is a good weapon for home defense. you better hope you are a damn good shot because one shot is probably all you'll get. the noise inside an enclosed area will shock the hell out of anyone. the recoil from both these guns is tremendous. I own a SS .44 magnum single action. It's definitely big and loud but unpractical I shoot once and then have to wait til I regain my senses to shoot again. If you hit em first time great gun otherwise. TOO BIG. Oh yeah and you should know if you have a handgun liscense NO WAITING PERIOD. Shotguns are good for day time altercations but in the night fresh out of sleep. give me my .40 cal any day. I do have my shotgun in the closet though!!!!:D
Omega

NashvilleBound
10-31-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by riodog
While I'm 100% "pro-gun" and a total advocate of the right to defend yourself and family, I would be reluctant to recommend a handgun for self-defense to someone that is not as familiar with said weapon as he is with his wife's left boob. Meaning, that when the lights are off, the tension is high, your blood-pressure is through the roof, you've just wet yourself and now you see a shadow in the hall***** bang ! you've just shot your kid!
Better idea is to go to www.surefire.com and checkout the flashlights.( I'm not kidding!) Better yet, stop by and they'll be happy to show you what I'm talking about. They're down by you in Fountain Valley. Your second stop can be the indoor pistol range down on Slater or Talbert about Beach Blvd.(i forget which, been a few years), they have qualified instructors on staff that can advise you. When you've burned about 10,000 rounds on the range come on back and we'll talk!
Riodog
As much as I hate to say it Riodog has got a good point. Their are plenty of non-lethal ways to protect yourself without endangering your family. A shotgun loaded with 00 buck will go through 2 to 3 rooms before stopping. A handgun in an inexperianced persons hand is deadly both ways. If you insist on getting a handgun get a revolver, .357 would be my reccomendation, as you dont have to think about racking the slide or safeties. Point and squeeze. And whatever you do get some QUALITY training and store it SAFELY! Once you pull the trigger your life will forever be changed!
Take it from someone who knows....
NB

Bense468
10-31-2003, 02:01 PM
I am with froggy on this one. If you hear someone in your house get to your kids get everyone together. If someone comes in that room take their head off with a shottie. I hear a lot of people saying that they would use a smaller caliber round or something to hurt or scare them. **** that, the last thing you want to do is pull a gun on someone and hurt or scare them. You pull it you use it and you better make it count. A shottie is the best gun for home protection period. Anyone that tells you that they can knock it out of your hand is someone I don't want to go shooting with. I would never let anyone that close to me. This is not the movies this is real life.
As far as handguns they are for the range or tactical ops. I like the sigs, H&K's and para ordnance.

NashvilleBound
10-31-2003, 02:57 PM
The thread was started by someone with little or no experience with any type of guns. Reccomending him to go out and buy a gun is a very bad idea. "Shotti"???
How cute :rolleyes: God forbid something really does happen, his mind will be spinning so fast and thats where an untrained person gets into trouble. Lets define training too...years and thousands of rounds. Sitting at a range all the time is lame and a waste of your time. You must train in ALL the positions, yep, face down, on your back, in the dirt, at night, and thats just some of them.
Still, getting a gun for someone with no experience is a bad idea all around....
NB

rivercrazy
10-31-2003, 03:12 PM
I couldn't agree more with what Froggy is saying here. A 12 gauge 2 3/4 bird shot round would be the what I'd recommend. All I can say is if anyone forceably breaks into my house, the lives of my family come first - Period.
If you have to have a handgun, I recommend a semi auto 9MM with a cor-bon 9MM 115 +P+ grain hollowpoint. Its one of the very best 1 stop rounds available. And the lower recoil of the 9MM is easier to shoot and generally more accurate.
Originally posted by Froggystyle
I am tempted to stay clear of this question, as it would seem a lot of good information is going around already... but here is my .02
Groggy, scared and night blind??? Give me a shotgun.
If you are really, really one of the above, get yourself an aimpoint laser for said shotgun.
And, don't leave your room. They can have anything in the house, but if they poke their head in your bedroom, they want something else. Take it off.
You can call the cops on a cell, keep them out of your room. If they are already in your room, the last thing you want to do is get shot with your own pistol, so screw that. Get a shotgun, hang it under your bed or behind your headboard (like I do) and teach your kids that it is there to protect them, and if they ever, ever ever touch it without you there, they have to go live with grandma.
Being funny, but if you are going to have a home protection device, make it a scattergun.
I like the ideas with birdshot in a pistol, but most can't hit a barn if they were inside it at night with no training. I'll put money on anyone with a shotgun.
Wes

silver surfer
10-31-2003, 04:28 PM
All great suggestions. Thank you! I am not a complete novice to guns, but close to it. I have tested a few semi & revolvers. These are the options I narrowed down:
Sig Sauer P226 Tactical Plus(1 extra in the chamber)
$795
Smith & Wesson 686
357 Mag 4'' barrel
$595
Mossberg Persuader 500
20 GA comes with a pistol grip
$375
Ammo Possibility: Blue Glaser Safety Slug(tested to not cause collateral damage?)
Any thoughts on these selections and prices?

Kindsvater Flat
10-31-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by silver surfer
Al
Ammo Possibility: Blue Glaser Safety Slug(tested to not cause collateral damage?)
Having just gone through my refresher for my ccw permit, 3rd time, for Ca, the topic is always brought up about home defense. Hands down get a shotgun. My primary home defense gun is a shotgun. My carry gun is a Sig Pro .40.
Something to make you think:
If you have a gun and the intruder doesn't, can you really prove that it was justifiable to shoot that person?
If that person has a vcr in his hand and is leaving the house, is that a threat? Would the court system believe that was in self defense.
What ever you do remember to remain calm, setup a safe room where all of your family can go and use a cell phone. And repeatedly tell the intruder that you are armed. To me I would avoid all confrontation with the intruder and keep my family safe. If he did come into our safe room......well I won't be using any non lethal ammunition.
Oh and for cool shit go check out Fire Quest (http://www.firequest.com)

silver surfer
10-31-2003, 04:48 PM
Smoke fumes have affected my brain! LMAO
Dog idea is doable. I'm concerned when we going motorcycle riding in the desert or camping in the middle of nowhere. We had a scary situation in Barstow which is prompting my decision to move forward with the purchase. Yes, I am concerned about the safety issues with my kids, but they are mature enough to handle a gun in the house and mainly RV. Both my boys will need to go to safety courses and Firing Line.
Thanks for the input RD. I appreciate your humor and insight.

Kindsvater Flat
10-31-2003, 04:53 PM
Lots of info here
packing (http://www.packing.org)

Dog
10-31-2003, 04:57 PM
Oh yeah and you should know if you have a handgun liscense NO WAITING PERIOD.
I wish that was true in Oklahoma. :frown:
If your not willing to spend the time and money to practise at least once a week I would think a dog or alarm system would be the best option.
As far as guns they all have there place depends on what you feel the most comfortable PRACTISING at least WEEKLYwith.
Just read your last post and if its going to be going with you i guess the shotgun would be more of a hassle and theres not a lot of room to move it around in a motor home.
The next carry gun I buy will probably be a Wilson CQB compact, I have small hands and its easier for me to carry a compact.
Just some thoguhts off the top of my head sorry for rambling.

CA Stu
10-31-2003, 05:06 PM
I'm concerned when we going motorcycle riding in the desert or camping in the middle of nowhere. We had a scary situation in Barstow which is prompting my decision to move forward with the purchase. [/B]
I wanna hear the story.
Thanks
CA Stu

Kindsvater Flat
10-31-2003, 05:19 PM
Right on Dave!!!!

Troubles No More
10-31-2003, 05:53 PM
I would have to agree with the dog theory…..
My wife and daughter where at home on a summer night when a man came in through the dining room window about 4 am (she forget to close it before going to bed). At the time she had a Border Collie dog (she found this abandon puppy at the river, lucky for her). It was the dog that saved the night. He chased the guy out of the house and woke everyone up, wife called the police to report it. This is the same guy that had broken into 4-5 other homes that same night and the same guy who was shot and killed after shooting at a policeman a couple days later in Huntington Beach.
Get a Dog, a BIG DOG, one that likes water and good with kids. Like a Newfoundland or a BIG lab……my .02

Dog
10-31-2003, 06:31 PM
This is a good forum for firearms.
http://www.1911forum.com (1911 forum)

77charger
10-31-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Dog
This is a good forum for firearms.
That is a good site to go to i go there alot for good info i have been doing so for abaout 2 years.Like isaid a 1911 is my choice for a handgun but in silver surfers situation a revolver or a 12 ga is a better choice IMO.
http://www.1911forum.com (1911 forum)

burbanite
11-01-2003, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by silver surfer
All great suggestions. Thank you! I am not a complete novice to guns, but close to it. I have tested a few semi & revolvers. These are the options I narrowed down:
Sig Sauer P226 Tactical Plus(1 extra in the chamber)
$795
Smith & Wesson 686
357 Mag 4'' barrel
$595
Mossberg Persuader 500
20 GA comes with a pistol grip
$375
Ammo Possibility: Blue Glaser Safety Slug(tested to not cause collateral damage?)
Any thoughts on these selections and prices?
silver surfer,
log on here and let this search facility do the work. It's free and will give you an idea on prices in your area. You can use it to bargain with the dealer of your choice as well.
http://www.galleryofguns.com/gunlocator/locatorstart.asp (Gun Search)

NashvilleBound
11-01-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by RiverDave
Some more "insight" for ya...
Would having a gun made the situation less scary or more scary? (think after the fact.. when your talking to the cops about the guy you just shot and your kids are watching you get hauled off to jail)
Being that you lived through it, and I'm assuming the other party did as well... and the age ole, don't pull a gun out unless your damn sure your going to use it.. etc..
A gun can just as easily ruin your life, as it can save it.. All these guys keep telling you to get a shot gun. Well let me tell ya flat out, nothing sais "Stay the **** outta my home" like this lil guy looking through the window at ya.. He's even smiling.. ;) :)
http://muglestonspitbullfarm.com/images/importd3.jpg
This one is smiling too..
http://muglestonspitbullfarm.com/images/cinnagirlmom.jpg
Shot guns just hide under the bed when your not home. ;) As well as if your wifes home alone.. You want her handling a shotgun? Or ya want ole Rover to take care of it for ya.. She can take her sweet time to either call the cops, or call you to come home and pick up what the dog hasn't eaten.
RD
RD's right....damn thats a scary thought...get a dog. Your list of weapons is good if you were totaly trained. If you get a gun I hope you never have to use it...
It will change your life.

LASERRAY
11-01-2003, 12:17 PM
SHOTGUN for sure. Very messy but you'll ice the perp with the first shot and you won't have to worry about the round going through walls. Also you can pick-up a good home defender type shotgun for about 1/3 to 1/2 cheaper than a pistola. And last but not least, god forbid you ever find yourself in need of any firearm but it's better to have one and not need one then...........................!

THE VIKING
11-01-2003, 12:26 PM
Goddamn, buy a dog, or get a scary ugly wife to scare those burglars away.
I would never take a gun into my house, i have a baseball bat instead.
And by the way, you can't buy handguns in Denmark , it's illegal.
The viking.

clownpuncher
11-01-2003, 01:45 PM
I say get a protection dog ( I trained Police/Narcotics/Bomb dogs for many many years, I can hook ya up) an MP-5 and a HK .40 with night sights. Best combo I could think of . Of course the MP 5 would be illegal for you to own :(
'course a good amount of training would have to be involved. Ah nevermind, go for the loud Labrador and an 18" shot gun with aimpoint, seriously.

NashvilleBound
11-01-2003, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by clownpuncher
......Of course the MP 5 would be illegal for you to own :(
Realllly????? Now you tell me :rolleyes:

LOWRIVER2
11-01-2003, 06:22 PM
Bottom line is this,
If someone buys a gun with no prior experience, they owe it to themselves and their loved ones to get some type of instruction on when to deploy it and how to operate it. These are not vehicles and you can't take an expended round back.
As for professional schools, One of the best is International Tactical Training Seminars www.internationaltactical.com The head instructor is Scott Reitz, a 24 year veteran of LAPD with 20 years in Metropolitan/SWAT division.
They have classes from beginner handgun (Defensive Handgun I) which discusses use of deadly force in depth as well as setting up a safe room. Current handgun ownership laws and basic manipulation/proper loading are taught. This is a two day class and handguns- holsters can be rented.
If you are considering a firearm for self defense, then you are preparing to be involved in a gun fight. Too many people buy fancy guns and don't think about the tactics/issues of getting into a gun fight.
Remember, the will of a person to survive along with manipulation mastery-accuracy will always be more important than the latest "waz zoo" firearm or accessory.
ITTS teaches gun fighting, plain and simple. Reitz is the head instructor for LAPD Metropolitan Div. which includes K-9/Mounted B and C line platoons and SWAT.
There are classes that will challenge anyone with any level of proficiency. The classes are taught at the EAGLES NEST LAPD Metropolitan Division Range in the San Fernando Valley.
I highly encourage anyone to check out the website and watch the video. It's an old tape of my division (C-Platoon) during one of our training days. We use Glock 21's, M16A1's and Ben. M1's now instead of the 870's and 92F's.
I may sound like spam but this is too important of an issue not to offer up this instruction. I do not get any pay for getting folks to go/LOL.
Reitz trains most of the celebrities you see in major movies these days and he's been called on by the studios to teach "real world weapons handling".

Hallett
11-02-2003, 04:02 AM
good god just but a shot gun and be done with it.:o

Stupid Fast
11-02-2003, 06:14 AM
There is some good info in this thread, but I must put in my 2 cents. I have been shooting since I was 5 or 6. Pistols, rifles and shotguns. With 20+ years of regular shooting, I would concider myself decent with a gun. Like someone mentioned before. Tactical shooting is a whole different ball game than target practice. Things get very different when your life or the life of a loved one is on the line. Training is the only way to help reduce the risk of something going teribly wrong. I doubt that in a high stress enviroment that people without training are going to think "what is behind that wall" My daughter, My wife? Also If you hit someone you need to STOP Them. there is nothing more dangerous than someone who is hurt and feels traped. I dont believe in the "non-penetrating" Ammo for this reason. Will it do the job? Or just piss him off and start a whole world of crap? If you pull out a gun on someone you have to be prepared to kill him. If you are not there is a huge chance that he will kill you instead of him.
If you feel ready any type of gun will work IF you know it. I would prefer a pistol just because that is what it is designed for.
a shotgun is also nice because it can also be used as a club also.
No gun no mater what type will work if you do not know the gun.
To me This:
http://www.vpc.org/graphics/davis.jpg
.38 Special
Is just as Effective as This:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/images/Products/64L.gif
44 magnum
The better choice depends on which one you can load and shoot beter.
Just my 2 cents.
EMC