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OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
01-07-2004, 09:37 AM
what a great ****ing idea:rolleyes: maybe next we can reduce the numbers in over populated prisons by pardoning all convicted felons. I feel pretty confident this won't pass in Congress and is only a scheme to get more votes, but damn:eek: Opinions???
Omega

Blown 472
01-07-2004, 10:53 AM
God damn Rio, that was ****ing beautiful.

78Eliminator
01-07-2004, 10:57 AM
I completely agree!!!!!!!!!!

gnarley
01-07-2004, 11:01 AM
This is a slap in the face of EVERY citizen who emigrated legally and/or had relatives that emigrated legally into the US of A.
**** THE BUSHES! :mad:

Seadog
01-07-2004, 11:15 AM
I can see the political leanings here. I may disagree in many parts with this, but at least he is trying to get dialogue established on what to do about the problem.
We have a serious problem with keeping the borders closed and temporary workers that are undocumented. We also have jobs that are not being filled because our kids are too good to do manual labor. If we can establish a way to fill these jobs legally and not hurt the US job market, we should consider it. As long as we can ironclad establish that these workers do not qualify for any benefits or priviledges that come from citizenship and that they and their children will not be granted citizenship, I am willing to discuss it.

Blown 472
01-07-2004, 11:17 AM
I wonder if they will finger print them and take their pics, or just suck up to them.
Kinda makes one wonder if he is in office for the betterment of his fellow man or just doing it for his own betterment??

Blown 472
01-07-2004, 12:16 PM
Bravo.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

canuck1
01-07-2004, 12:21 PM
Rio
Whats wrong with the name Canuck?

Pointerman
01-07-2004, 12:34 PM
and polititions= politicians
:D

78Eliminator
01-07-2004, 12:37 PM
Want to know what makes me furious and this is not just the illegals that do it:
People who have tons of kids. I am a firm believer of quality over quantity. I would prefer every family have one, maybe two kids and spend TONS of time with them, rather than blast them out one after another and leaving it to govenmental institutions to raise or babysit them all day. Plan on leaving your kid in day care? Why not just skip having kids then. If you already have one, then deal with it. But if you can't raise them yourself, then you HAVE NO RIGHT TO BREED.
I hardly ever go to the movies any more. I politely asked a young 12 year old girl and her boyfriend to be quiet now that the movie had started and she told me to "**** Off". I could not believe my ears. When I was her age, I would have been afraid of some adult that I didn't even know. They have no respect. Why? Because no one is raising them. It's quantity over quality.
I think my major contribution is going to be the fact that I am not going to have kids. My god, what the **** are we going to do with them all? This almost ALWAYS leads to war. It's our human population control.
Let's try to work on the next genius that discovers the cure for cancer, instead of having a shit load of mindless consumers who basically eat, shit, **** and have more kids without ever contemplating their own existence or purpose.....

canuck1
01-07-2004, 12:41 PM
Rio
so what your saying is that you don't like/want to support me if I move down there.
gun laws?
Half of Alberta will be going to jail because of the new gun laws.
You can have montreal no one from the west wants it either
Tom Brown is actually Saskatchewans mascot

Havasu Cig
01-07-2004, 12:50 PM
Reagan granted amnesty to millions in the 80's and it did not solve a thing. The current plan will not work either.
The need to start a guest worker program where they are here to do just that, WORK!!
They need to change the law that makes their kids legal if they are born here.
They need to put the Military on the border and not listen to the Mexican advocacy groups that want to turn us into Mexico.
We need to control our borders. The mexican Government does not want to stop illegal immigration because it funnels to much money back to Mexico. I think I read somewhere that 18 billion a year is sent from the U.S. to Mexico by Illegal aliens.:rolleyes:

canuck1
01-07-2004, 12:53 PM
It seems to me that the US won the battle for California but the Mexican people are winning the war

Havasu Cig
01-07-2004, 12:57 PM
It sure seems that way. The thing that really pissed me off was after September 11th. Everone was flying American flags to show unity and patriotism, and the Mexican community here in North san Diego County began flying even more Mexican flags than before. It seems that they could show some solidarity with the community they live in.:rolleyes:

Irishluck
01-07-2004, 12:58 PM
**** Illegals and **** politics:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
01-07-2004, 01:12 PM
yeah we still got ropes riodog and I can tie a good slip knot.;) You hit the nail right on the head when you referred to the legality issue. That was why made the comment about setting felons free. illegal immigration is ILLEGAL if they change the laws for that what will be next. This is one hell of a discrase to the republican party. I can't believe they let this ass clown run for office and I pray congress has enough sense to stop this madness before it gets started. These damn politicians are all about a second term now!!!! they are all corrupt and for sale to the highest bidder. It sickens me! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who has a huge problem with this idea....:eek:
Omega (ready for a revolution)

AzDon
01-07-2004, 02:07 PM
This is all about cheap wages! Mr Bush's plan will allow American businessmen to openly recruit in Mexico, which will create an oversupply of unskilled or semiskilled labor, which will result in NO INCENTIVE OR NEED for employers to pay one cent more than what is minimally allowed, if supply and demand is the only consideration. At minimum wage, these folks will not be able to participate in our society in conventional ways. As consumers, they will be useless to our economy (for lack of spendable funds) and as neighbors, they will live 15 to a dwelling, or in their uninsured $300 cars, or in the underbrush! And if anybody thinks these folks will be denied taxpayer provided social services, they are dreaming!! ( minimum wage workers often qualify for a full range of social services because their income is below poverty level...I view this as nothing more than a taxpayer provided subsidy for their cheap-ass employer!!)
This is a cynical attempt to capitalize on the one thing that Bush's business constituency likes about illegal immigration: It adds a lot of cheap labor to the pool. At the same time Bush hopes to add Latinos to his constituency and feels confident enough that his core supporters will not be offended enough to vote for someone else.
In all this kinda shit, there is always someone quoted who says something like:
"They (Mexicans) are willing to work jobs that Americans don't want".....This is an incomplete sentence that those quoted never seem to finish... It should read:
"They are willing to work jobs that Americans don't want AT THE WAGES BEING OFFERED!
If the existence of the job is economically viable and justifiable, then the employer should NOT be allowed to pay a foriegner less, or offer poorer working conditions than entry-level Americans would consider acceptable! And we should deny social services to any American who refuses one of these jobs!

Rexone
01-07-2004, 02:12 PM
Rio you seriously have me worried. I can't believe how much I agree with your posts of the past 24 hours. :confused:
:D

mirvin
01-07-2004, 02:15 PM
If the laws were enforced there would be no problem.

Blown 472
01-07-2004, 02:22 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3375327.stm

Havasu Cig
01-07-2004, 02:36 PM
"National Council Of la Raza" give me a F@#king break.
What if we started the "National Council Of The White Race". That would not be accepted very well. These racist groups are a joke.
Do some research on Mecha (sp). They call California, as well as other southern states, Aztlan. They don't consider them part of the U.S.
My other 1/2 had a Mecha chapter on her college campus here in So.Cal. and the racist bull$hit they spewed was incredible.:mad:

canuck1
01-07-2004, 02:49 PM
Rio
I still don't get it, You don't want to support me?:D

canuck1
01-07-2004, 02:51 PM
And BTW it ain't much different up here, Welcome to Canada where would you like us to send your check

Tom Brown
01-07-2004, 03:13 PM
I don't pretend to have an answer to this issue but there's no question in my mind that any lasting solution to the illegal alien problem is going to have to involve Sigourney Weaver.

totenhosen
01-07-2004, 03:23 PM
this is nothing more than cheap politics/tatics to obtain votes in an election year. I feel that for all of the good he has done this is a major slap in the face to all Republicans especially to those in California who have to deal with the brunt of illegal immigration.

Schiada76
01-07-2004, 04:50 PM
Klintoon sodimized Monica, Bush just sodomized all the rest of us.
**** the lot of 'em. Bring on that crazy ****er Dean and watch it all melt down.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I'm buying more ammo.:yuk: :yuk:

twistedpair
01-07-2004, 05:24 PM
Politicians Rule Book:
Rule 1. Get elected
Rule 2. See rule 1
Anything else is fair game. Tell 'em what THEY want to hear, Give 'em what YOU want to give, Does'nt matter which party.

coolchange
01-07-2004, 05:36 PM
What really twists me are the ones smart enough to work the system, not hide from it.
"And now MR./MS. new citizen,what is your age?"
"I am foorrrt um err fifty nine."
Retirement in 6 years and 40 years of social security checks. :mad:

73beast
01-07-2004, 05:46 PM
Damn Realmutt, how big of a soapbox did you have to build for this thread??? ::D P.S. I agree.

Dr. Eagle
01-07-2004, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
Reagan granted amnesty to millions in the 80's and it did not solve a thing. The current plan will not work either.
The need to start a guest worker program where they are here to do just that, WORK!!
They need to change the law that makes their kids legal if they are born here.
They need to put the Military on the border and not listen to the Mexican advocacy groups that want to turn us into Mexico.
We need to control our borders. The mexican Government does not want to stop illegal immigration because it funnels to much money back to Mexico. I think I read somewhere that 18 billion a year is sent from the U.S. to Mexico by Illegal aliens.:rolleyes:
Bravo Cig.....

Seadog
01-08-2004, 07:13 AM
While I favor a dialogue on finding means to allow limited temporary use of Mexicans in certain industries, I am dead set against allowing citizenship to them or any other ILLEGAL immigrants. I am also firmly against allowing the rights of citizenship to any child that was born of illegal immigrants that were in this country. Close that stupid loophole!
There is probalby no way to effectively accomplish this, but at least we should try. There are industries around this area that cannot get enough employees. The wages are decent, but no one wants to be a ditch digger or chicken plucker. I had two SILs that plucked chickens a long time ago, but the kids nowadays wold rather do nothing or work for less at McD.
If the jobs are not being filled, the companies have to make choices. Once it becomes more practical to move an industry out of the country, we all lose.

Havasu Cig
01-08-2004, 08:02 AM
I here what you are saying. that is why we need a REAL guest worker program. When I was a kid they had this, I believe it was called the Bracero Program. They were allowed to come for a specified time and work, then they had to return to Mexico. The were not allowed to stay year round, and could not bring their family members.
My family had some major avocado groves back then and they used workers from this program. It worked then, I think it would work now. At least they would be paying taxes on the money they earn, instead of getting payed under the table. We could also better track who is in the country.

JakeAisA
01-08-2004, 01:48 PM
I'm sorry to say it...but you guys have it all wrong. At best, you're only partially right.
First, George Bush is not doing this for votes. It enrages his base and there's evidence that this will only help Democrats. It will help Democrats becauase: 1) they gain more by having more immigrant workers (they brainwash minorities into thinking they're "victims" that should be placated) and 2) there is evidence that "legal" immigrants are just as opposed to "amnesty" as the conservatives are (they feel like they earned a right to citizenship that illegals are being given for free). George Bush knows this and his aides know this--he isn't doing it for votes becuase it's just too risky at best--he's doing it because he thinks it's a viable solution.
Secondly, there isn’t a problem with Illigals getting welfare and not paying taxes. . It is true that many illegals are taking advantage of our welfare state and it is true that they don’t pay taxes. But people “taking free rides” off the our socialist welfare programs is nothing new. And who does pay taxes that is on welfare? The problem isn’t illegal aliens getting welfare and handouts. The problem is welfare and handouts itself.
Proposition 187 in California said that illigals couldn’t receive state funded welfare and services, only citizens could. I disagreed with this bill because it was discriminatory—NO ONE SHOULD BE GETTING WELFARE FOR ANY REASON! Welfare is paid for by money extorted from the taxpayers. Welfare, of all kinds, is the problem. We as taxpayers are forced, against our will, to pay for people not to work. I don’t care if a it’s a black person, a white person, an Asian, a Mexican, a US citizen or an alien—I’m being extorted money to pay for people to do nothing. Our welfare state is the problem, not who’s receiving the welfare.
But what about illigals taking “American” jobs? Well, they aren’t taking away American jobs. It is a fact that illigals work jobs that most Americans will never consider doing. And these jobs do include jobs that still would not be filled by white Americans even if the pay was higher.
Many of the jobs we all think of as being filled by “illegals” are in fact being worked by “legal” workers. Almost all of the jobs you see Mexicans working that are with big companies are being worked by “legal” immigrants or actual citizens who are of Mexican decent. When you see a Mexican working at El Pollo Loco, he’s legal. When you see Mexican cleaning toilets at one of the Irvine Company’s buildings, that guy is legal. These jobs are open to all Americans and the pay is at least minimum wage. So why don’t we see white and blacks doing these jobs? They have the same opportunity to fill them, but they don’t because they’re lazy and they’ve been indoctrinated with the “victicrat” mentality.
Now, the jobs above are open to “citizens” but they aren’t being filled by white and blacks now. What makes anybody think that black and white “citizens” would be doing the even tougher jobs that only illegals are doing? Does anybody think that “real Americans” are going to go out in the fields to pick fruit or run a lawnmower in your backyard? They won’t…not ever. Well, not until we kick their asses off the couch by cutting our hard-earned welfare checks to them.
But what about terrorism you might ask? The lowball estimates are 7-12 million illigals are currently in the US—they’re already here!!! Our government has dropped the ball on it’s number one job—protecting America. Our military and police budget represents only a fraction of our total government spending and it’s the most important thing government does. Having said that, even if we cut all of the socialist spending and diverted it to INS and military spending, how could we find and deport 10 million people who are already here? How can you do that? How would you find them all? Do you want the INS knocking on your door tomorrow, forcing a search of your home to make sure Jaime or Jose isn’t hiding out there? I don’t think so. And besides, these 10 million people aren’t terrorists. Even if we did increase the INS man power from 10,000 agents (currently) to 200,000 or whatever…I’d want them looking for Al Quada guys, not illegal aliens. Right?
And for all you that think America is yours to keep closed to any newcomers—think about what America would be like if our forefathers had done that 200 years ago, or any time between then an now for that matter. America is stronger and we all profit more with the more productive people we have living here. That’s an economic fact. The operative word is “productive” though. As I’ve already said, no one has a right to welfare. So if immigrants are living here and producing for themselves, and welfare isn’t an option, then we’re all better off.

unleashed
01-08-2004, 11:22 PM
I have to agree with Rio on this issue. Jake you are to diplomatic with your responses and to edumacated for your own good. Try driving to the local docks down in Long Beach and tell me you are in America. All the truck driving jobs have now been taken by our south of the border friends(I call them friends as I like to visit there country every now and then). I know alot of the older folk whom used to drive the docks are pissed because our freinds took these jobs for much lower wages thus forcing out alot of hard working Americans that had been driving trucks for years. These are examples of the types of problems Illegals create. Bush's helping hand is a slap in the face to all the illegals that went through the system to become legal. As far as farming goes we have more prisons now than new schools being built. What a brainstorm. Have non violent inmates work the fields for time off etc. There are many things we can do to improve the American way of life and one of them is to stop giving hand outs. Bush is looking for votes period. He knows there is a large contigent of legal foreigners in this country whom have relatives that are illegal. He has just given them a reason to vote for him.
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://Unleashedclothing.com) :devil:

INXS
01-09-2004, 02:53 AM
In New Jersey our governor, Mc Greedy, keeps the bums on the welfare rolls after their five year max by taking money from the state unemployment fund. He also hired 100 of his friends at over $100k a year and refuses to say what their jobs are, siteing sceurity as the reason!
INXS

HammerDown
01-09-2004, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by riodog
We will address this from the bottom up. Yes were all immigrants at one time(fore fathers), but that was 200 years ago when this country NEEDED people and the people that came were people that were an ASSET to this new country and had the ABILITY and the DESIRE to help build this country. They came because this country OFFERED them the opportunity to BUILD SOMETHING FOR THEMSELVES not because it was EASIER to get what they wanted. They were not violating another country's laws when they came .
Riodog> Michael
BRAV-F'ing-O :wink: and also to the rest of your statement.
Bottom line, the only reason Bush is doing this is for votes.
Even my stupid ass came to that conclusion.

78Eliminator
01-09-2004, 10:46 AM
You guys are making me really depressed. What to do? Do you really think anyone in office is going to make a difference? Or for that matter, ANY elected official?
I swear to god, I smell a civil war, this place is getting out of hand. :frown:

mirvin
01-09-2004, 10:58 AM
Maybe Bush is trying to get something going, in the way of reform, that he can sort of limit the damage that might be done if he did nothing. Think about it. What he is proposing is WAY MORE RESTRICTIVE than what would eventually happen if we leave it up to the Limozine Liberals.;)
I'm not saying any of it is right. I believe our laws should be enforced and every illegal alien should be deported. Not because I don't care about people either. I just think the law should be followed is all.
Hey 78, cheer up. I see a cold beer in your future;)

JakeAisA
01-09-2004, 11:09 AM
Finally, do not bring up the shit about 'we were all immigrants at one time'. We will address this from the bottom up. Yes were all immigrants at one time(fore fathers), but that was 200 years ago when this country NEEDED people and the people that came were people that were an ASSET to this new country and had the ABILITY and the DESIRE to help build this country. They came because this country OFFERED them the opportunity to BUILD SOMETHING FOR THEMSELVES not because it was EASIER to get what they wanted.
You’re absolutely right about this point: many illegals do come here because it is EASIER to get what they want. So what does that say about the problem? If we get rid of all the illegals, but we keep in the place the “freebies” available if they can get back in, what makes you think anything will change? They’ll just keep coming back for the “freebies.” Right? Deport 10 million illegals and I guarantee you that they’ll all be back in short time. The problem is our welfare state. If there were no socialist handouts—TO ANYONE—then there is far less incentive for illegals to jump the border.
Splain to us about bankrupt school districts. Let's try our bankrupt healthcare system. How about just plain over crowding everything from classrooms (where YOUR kid is), to the streets where they live (27 people per room means a whole lot of shopping carts on the lawns).
Our Bancrupt school system is not the illegals fault—it’s government. Education should be private…like it was before the Great American Socialist, FDR. Our public healthcare system is also in peril because of the government. If you had read my post closely, you would have remembered that I propose NO HANDOUTS TO ANYONE FOR ANYTHING, CITIZEN OR NOT.
Who's gonna pay for the hospital bills? They are? On 8-10 bucks an hour? Get real. Wanna talk about all of the taxes they are going to be paying? On the wages that they make they'll get all of the fed and state back and you and I will still be supporting them and the eight ****ing kids they had cuz they have NO self control when it comes to breeding. Taxes ! Tell me Mr.Wizard about who's gonna gonna get stuck paying more taxes to pay for the schools and med facilities. WE are dipstick, they're called property taxes.
We need a tax revolution and we need to overthrow the welfare state. Nobody should be paying for the education of their neighbors children, or the education of illegal aliens children. The same is true for everything else that government forces us to pay for that goes to those who can, but won’t pay for themselves.
Look, took many illegals come here because they know that we’ll throw handouts at them. They know that if they can’t afford something, we’ll pay for it. If we stopped this insane practice of paying people not to provide, not to work, not to earn enough to survive, then they won’t come here. The same holds true for those Americans who take advantage of the Welfare state for the same reasons. The problem is the Welfare state.
We pay people in this country to have children at the expense of the government (taxpayers). We pay them to breed out of control. We pay them not to teach their children to become productive members of society because they learn for their parent(s) that doing nothing at all is profitable when the government will pick up the tab. Things will change when we get rid of the welfare state.
Would you have a problem with immigrants coming to this country knowing that there is no free ride anywhere here? Like it was before the 20th Century? Would you have a problem with immigrants coming here and becoming successful all on their own?

JakeAisA
01-09-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by unleashed
I have to agree with Rio on this issue. Jake you are to diplomatic with your responses and to edumacated for your own good.
Unleashedclothing (http://Unleashedclothing.com) :devil:
Are you suggesting ignorance bear a solution to our problems?

JakeAisA
01-09-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Are you suggesting ignorance bear a solution to our problems?
Correction: Are you suggesting ignorance will bear a solution to our problems?

unleashed
01-09-2004, 01:12 PM
What I am suggesting is get real. Go out and about and check reality and stop living in the classroom. Sure books teach and inform the public on a general level but to go out and live it is another. I grew up in the inner city and have witnessed first hand what illegal immigration has caused. Deteriation of our communities, a burden on our handouts to legal citizens, increase in crime not to mention hundreds of deaths at our borders, and the increase in Gang Activity. If you really think Bushs plan will solve anything you are sorely mistaken. I think that is what the subject of this whole conversation was or is. Your last post makes a little more sense but I still think you are wrong for supporting Bushs plan. South Gate used to be a nice middle class neighborhood when I was a kid. I dare you to drive down Martin Luther king now especially if you dont speak Spanish. Lets see how long you last! This is America and we have laws, if you are illegal today you should be illegal tommorow, you are just giving them more reasons to come to the America with the new Bush law!
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) :devil:

JakeAisA
01-09-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by unleashed
What I am suggesting is get real. Go out and about and check reality and stop living in the classroom. Sure books teach and inform the public on a general level but to go out and live it is another. I grew up in the inner city and have witnessed first hand what illegal immigration has caused. Deteriation of our communities, a burden on our handouts to legal citizens, increase in crime not to mention hundreds of deaths at our borders, and the increase in Gang Activity. If you really think Bushs plan will solve anything you are sorely mistaken. I think that is what the subject of this whole conversation was or is. Your last post makes a little more sense but I still think you are wrong for supporting Bushs plan. South Gate used to be a nice middle class neighborhood when I was a kid. I dare you to drive down Martin Luther king now especially if you dont speak Spanish. Lets see how long you last! This is America and we have laws, if you are illegal today you should be illegal tommorow, you are just giving them more reasons to come to the America with the new Bush law!
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) :devil:
Bush's plan won't solve it. I don't claim it will. The destruction of the incentive that draws immigrants like crack cocaine is the only solution--the welfare state. Bush's plan only addresses one aspect of this problem--what to do with the 10 million illegals already here. I don't care what anybody says, there is no possible way to deport 10 million people. Imagine the man power and the resources needed to first find them, and then to deport them. We're talking about upwards of 5% of the entire population must be tracked down and deported. And then what do we do when they're all gone and the incentive to jump back accross the border is still there (education, medical services, etc.)? They'll be back the next day. Furthermore, these people, the actual persons who come only to work, are guilty of only one thing--breaking our immigration laws so they may leave the corrupt, third world, poverty stricken, opportunityless, diseased existence they currently live in in Mexico or below. They come here to work. The education, medical and other government services encourage them to bring thier families, it encourages them to have children they can't afford once thier here, and it encourages thier children not to learn or earn for themselves because they quickly realize that the government will take care of all thier problems. If there were no welfare, of any kind, these immigrants would come here 1) by themselves if they already have a family becuase they'll know that if they cannot provide for thier family, they're better off left in Mexico, or 2) they won't start families here in the US becuase they won't be able to afford it.
Here's the deal. Don't make the mistake of thinking poverty causes crime because it doesn't--a lack of values and standards, or a bad set of values and standards cause crime. This country was made great by people who were born into poverty with nothing, but who had the self-esteem, the drive, the ambition and the standards to be successful. This country is all about becoming something out of nothing. Welfare destroys those values. When you tell people that they don't have to be responsible for themselves and that they don't have to be responsible for thier families, because the government will do it for them, those people abandon all standards and values altogether. The black community has be ravaged by this effect. The Mexican community is being destroyed by it. There are huge populations of whites that are being ravaged by the same effect welfare has on standards and values.
Wealth has nothing to with crime and decency--standards do. The proof is that there are whole communities in the deep south, some are black, some are white, that are among the poorest communities in the entire country--but they have no crime becuase they have standards. They're deeply religious and they're not addicted to government handouts. Their families are dirt poor but they're intact (they don't have 75% out of wedlock birth rates like the inner city that is completely destroyed by the welfare effect).
Everything will change for the better once we destroy the welfare state.

Laughlin Drunk
01-09-2004, 03:22 PM
I have to agree with JakeAisA here. Immigration is not the problem. Mexicans are not the problem. Our socialist policies are the problem; the Mexican immigrants only expose our bankrupt social institutions. They are the just last piece of straw placed on the camel’s back, and the camel was already loaded down with American straw (read “loafers”).
Let’s separate the two issues. One is the effect of welfare state policies. One is the effect of cheap foreign labor. I’m posting to discuss cheap foreign labor.
I have never understood the great evil that Mexican immigrants pose. They come to America willing to work. Americans employers feel that they are the “best man” for many jobs, demonstrated by the fact that they are hired (they offer the best output of work compared to the cost). Why is that bad? Both parties are better off. Both parties are happy.
People need to realize the cold truth of our world. Unskilled labor is a commodity, not a specialized product. To purchase any commodity (wheat, corn, water, unskilled labor) for more than the lowest price available is a just plain stupid (I consider it morally criminal). Paying more adds nothing to the value of the end product… IT ONLY INCREASES THE PRICE, which decreases production, which makes our economy that much poorer.
I don’t hear anybody complaining when the price of TV’s goes down? And I’ll bet there is a foreign made TV in your living room (ahh, made with cheap foreign labor)… actually you probably have 3 in your home!
The fact is, everybody that is anti-immigration wants to eat their cake and have it, too. They think they should be paid $35 dollars an hour for washing my car and also get grapes at Wal*Mart for $1.99. Well, they can complain to me about immigration when they pass up the cheap grapes and buy grapes for $14.99 marked with a little sticker that says “Proudly picked by Teamsters”… but we all know that they will never buy those grapes, because if they would, someone would be selling ‘em.

JakeAisA
01-09-2004, 03:31 PM
Amen Laughlin Drunk!

mirvin
01-09-2004, 03:33 PM
Well said LD. Here's something everyone's missing: We have a vested interest in the "Welfare" of our nieghbors to the south. The farther we take this discussion the closer we get to having to talk about the source. Somehow we need to fix the situation there???!! THey don't just come here for opportunity, but also to get away from the corruption in Mexico.
just a thought.

Dr. Eagle
01-09-2004, 11:05 PM
Valid points all. I like the door lock analogy.
See, these kind of issues are where George W and I diverge. I have issues with opening the borders in any fashion. Using the EXCUSE that they are coming here anyway is just a cop out.
I agree with the war on terror. Finally someone has the balls to take on the tinhorns around the world and to hell with the friggin french. But this flies in the face of domestic security, and seems to be political pandering of the first order.
Sorry George W is my man, but sometimes I just have issues with the logic in some policies and initiatives.

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
01-10-2004, 07:19 AM
I applaud you riodog for keeping your business in America!! I buy American whenever possible. My pickup was built in Fort Wayne, Indinia and my Tahoe in Arlington, Texas. I know that some or most of the parts may have been manufactured down south but the bottom line is my money still goes to an American company. As for all the comments about illegals only filling unskilled labor jobs. I worked for a company called seatrax that manufactered cranes for drill rigs, barges, etc. they had $20-25 welders being replaced by illegals that speaky no english. Once they got one, he recruited his whole family, friends, etc. these guys weren't pushing lawnmowers or picking fruit, they were performing extremely technical welding, heat treating and machining (CNC). When I left there I reported them to INS only to hit a brick wall. when I went to work for them there was about a 10-15% hispanic workforce, when I left there were about 70-80% hispanic. these jobs are not highly technical but not what I would consider unskilled labor either. It's only a matter of time before they begin to climb the food chain and will be replacing several white collar jobs, then what??? Oh yeah, the illegals were paid about $8 an hour but the price of the cranes remained the same. Wonder where all that saved money went????
One last thought, In the WAR ON TERROR how does it make sense to open our borders to any and all who wish to come and work...........
Omega

Dr. Eagle
01-10-2004, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
I
One last thought, In the WAR ON TERROR how does it make sense to open our borders to any and all who wish to come and work...........
Omega
I think the "War on Terror" and "Open Borders" are mutually exclusive concepts. I hope this initiative dies before it gets too far...

JakeAisA
01-10-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by riodog
Laughlin Drunk and JakeA, you both make completely valid points when it comes to our social giveaway programs however you're living a very sheltered life when you portray the majority of illegals as industrious, ambitious, etc. If they were that willing to expend the energy then why in gods name don't they stay home and make something out of their own country? Having a corrupt gov't is no excuse. They want to **** with our gov't so why don't they fix theirs. As for changing our welfare laws- I agree. But do you think for one minute that we'll ever be able to change everything that's wrong with our system all at once? We have to start somewhere and by stopping the flow of 'bodies' flowing north we can at least make a start. We may not ever be able to deport them all, so be it, but by stemming the flow we might be able to get a handle on it.
The most simplistic example I can give you is if YOU forget to lock your door one night do I have the right to come in and expect you to provide me with cloth's, meds, food, etc. just because I'm here? These illegals are of the same mentality as lemmings and they been on the migration far too long to be stopped by having the headlines in their local paper read "US welfare laws changed". Get Real! If that were ever to happen then you know damn well the ACLU would file a lawsuite that very day.
RIO
Ps. Some of us live exactly what we preach. I would rather go bankrupt than hire 1 illegal. This (if it comes through) is the product tag that goes on every item I manufacture and it means exactly what it says. I have had offers to have my products made overseas for about 1/4 of my cost here in the states and it ain't gonna happen!
www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/356File0003.jpg
You're missing the point riodog, many of those coming here are only coming here becuase they know they'll be fully supported by us. If we didn't pay for lowlifing, only those who could support themselves would come. And these individuals wouldn't be so inclined to build families here at the expense of American taxpayers.
And you "lock the door" analogy is false. If somebody barged into your home and you fed and clothed them, permanently, as a reward for making it in, it would by your fault. There would a line down the street of of people who were telling themselves: "yeah, all you have to do is make it inside riodog's house and he'll give you a place to stay, food to eat, clothes, television, everything...forever." That would be your fault and you'll lose the battle in trying to protect the doors and and the windows instead of telling the bastards: "Gt the hell out of my house, I'm not your papa, make your own life." That's the proper analogy.
If you said that instead, only the Mexicans who want to earn thier own food, clothing, medical care, education and life would move into your neighborhood...at thier own expense. If you still have a problem with that scenario, then your issue isn't with immigration--it's with Mexicans.

JakeAisA
01-10-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
I applaud you riodog for keeping your business in America!! I buy American whenever possible. My pickup was built in Fort Wayne, Indinia and my Tahoe in Arlington, Texas. I know that some or most of the parts may have been manufactured down south but the bottom line is my money still goes to an American company. As for all the comments about illegals only filling unskilled labor jobs. I worked for a company called seatrax that manufactered cranes for drill rigs, barges, etc. they had $20-25 welders being replaced by illegals that speaky no english. Once they got one, he recruited his whole family, friends, etc. these guys weren't pushing lawnmowers or picking fruit, they were performing extremely technical welding, heat treating and machining (CNC). When I left there I reported them to INS only to hit a brick wall. when I went to work for them there was about a 10-15% hispanic workforce, when I left there were about 70-80% hispanic. these jobs are not highly technical but not what I would consider unskilled labor either. It's only a matter of time before they begin to climb the food chain and will be replacing several white collar jobs, then what??? Oh yeah, the illegals were paid about $8 an hour but the price of the cranes remained the same. Wonder where all that saved money went????
One last thought, In the WAR ON TERROR how does it make sense to open our borders to any and all who wish to come and work...........
Omega
"Buying American" is Un-American. Yup, that's right, you heard me right--Buying American is Un-American. To buy something strictly because of who made it is Un-American. It's Anti- Capitalist and it's destructive to your own business and country.
When you buy something, like a T-Shirt, or better yet, Steel, if you consider where it came from instead of the price or quality of the product (assuming it's not stolen or produced by slave labor or something) then you are destroying value, you're taking money you've made and you're burning it, you're taking hours of work and throwing it away--and that is Un-American.
If you're an automobile manufacturer and you only buy steel from Pittsburgh, at higher then market prices, for the sole reason that it was forged by "Americans" and not "Japanese", you're destroying value and that is Un-American. The profit you have thrown away by increasing your costs translates to less money for your own company. That means you have less to grow, to hire, to advertise, to produce. And everything you might think of doing to make it up, can be done anyway--so there's no way to make up that lost value. You may say--well, let's build a better car--why didn't you build a better car before? You might say--let's become more efficient in production--why didn't you do that before? There is no way to regain that destructed value and it translates to higher prices, layoffs and slower growth (less money to re-invest and grow). But, be happy if you want, your steel working buddies will have jobs and they'll be flourishing...even though they're not the best at what they do and they only do it because "that's what they've always done and Goddamnit, that want to die a steelworker."
But why should the rest of the economy suffer so steelworkers can retire as steelworkers? That's not Capitalism and that's not American.
When the automobile first started to flourish, did we tell Buggy Whip manufacturers that they had a right to continue on as Buggy Whip manufacturers, with the same production, profit and future as they had before thier product was obsolete? No, we bought cars and those people had to learn something else. That's capitalism. That's American. When a new technology comes around, it was probably invented by Americans because we're entrepreneurial, flexible and ambitious. When a product goes obsolete, we junk it and adopt the new and improved product. There is nothing American about supporting poor and dying businesses becuase they're operated by "Americans." What does that do for our economy and the companies who will no longer be able to compete because they're left out cold and weren't considered as valuable as the "steelworkers" or the "Buggy Whip" makers.
My point is proven by our unemployment rate itself. American automobile manufacturers could not compete against foreign automakers because they paid much more for a valuable component of thier business--labor. They paid more for American labor then foreign competitors did for thiers. That left more value for the foreign automakers to spend on every other aspect of their business. American automakers responded in the only way they could if they wanted to survive--they moved manufacturing south of the border or overseas. Thousands and thousands of people were laid off over a period of years and it was doom and gloom we were told. But what happened? Are these people still unemployed? No, they learned another trade because when it came down to it, they had no choice and it's the American way. Our unemployment rate is what, 6%? Where are all the unemployed as a result of international trade? What about the ripple effects? Where is the doom and gloom? Not to mention, most of that 6% unemployment is what they call "frictional unemployment". Which means that about 3.5-4% of of the this 6% number is not really unemployed, but they're in between jobs or they're contractor types that have finished a job and have not yet started the next job. So what we're really talking about here is 2 to 2.5% unemployment, right now, given the fact that so many businesses have shipped production overseas. The American worker and the US Economy survived "outsourcing"!!! Oh my god, people learned new skills and they didn't end up in soup kitchens. And guess what? Those companies that outsourced are flourishing too. Why? Because they had more value to re-invest in thier business. That translates to better products, at lower prices, to everyone. And that also means that grandma and grandpa's share's in that company, or your shares, are worth more.
Buying American is Un-American.

73beast
01-10-2004, 02:54 PM
Riodogs product labelhttp://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/356File0003-med.jpg

HammerDown
01-10-2004, 07:35 PM
"IT'S THE ****ING BEHAVIOR ! WHAT PART OF ILLEGAL DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? I don't give a rat's ass if the violators were sea otters or real estate brokers, when they come across the border illegally- 2 rounds in the center body mass! I don't give a flying **** what the reason is for the breaking of the law. IT DOES NOT MATTER!"
I can't belive I'm going to say this but ....RioDog for President.

HammerDown
01-10-2004, 08:27 PM
Your worrying about me...well that makes two of us.
...actually I've read all the post about this topic. Even though I'm way out here in the East...It does strike a nerve, Illegal blood suckers in our country always have. NY has it's share of problems...then it filters into NJ with the Farm workers. So yes, it is getting close to home here. Just not the magnitude as seen where you are.
And I'm sure if I were being surrounded buy the situation such as you...well it's hard to say.
But your posts did hit the nail on the head as fas as I'm concerned.
And as far as what caliber to use on a real estate broker?
The same one that works on Lawers , used car salesmen, and most insurance co's.:cool:

Capt. Insane-o
01-11-2004, 01:25 AM
We can haul tons of equipment thousands of miles away and overthrow a country in months, but cannot keep our borders under control, why do I find irony in this.........................it's nothing a couple million land mines would'nt fix. Smooth move dubya.:yuk:

Tom Brown
01-11-2004, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by riodog
Tell me is Tom Brown really your 'national mascot?
Rio
I've spent my share of time on a flag pole. :D

Rexone
01-11-2004, 02:11 AM
il·le·gal
adj.
Prohibited by law.
Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.
n.
An illegal immigrant
-------------------------------------
Right outta the dictionary. To bad politicans are only concerned with following laws when they are in "their" best interests. The border could be shut down tighter than a bank vault within days if the federal government chose to do so.
How funny the dictionary would choose "an illegal immigrant" as their example of the word used as a noun. Perhaps because it's the most common example of its use in this country? :eek:

Dr. Eagle
01-11-2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Rexone
il·le·gal
adj.
Prohibited by law.
Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football.
Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation.
n.
An illegal immigrant
-------------------------------------
Right outta the dictionary. To bad politicans are only concerned with following laws when they are in "their" best interests. The border could be shut down tighter than a bank vault within days if the federal government chose to do so.
How funny the dictionary would choose "an illegal immigrant" as their example of the word used as a noun. Perhaps because it's the most common example of its use in this country? :eek:
Right on Mike. I am a GW supporter, until he gets to these types of policy initiatives. This is political pandering, plain and simple...the same type that makes my blood boil when the Democrats do it. This is just plain wrong.
Illegal Immigrant problem? I just make em legal. No Problem. See what I have done for you, Mr. American???
WRONG....plain and simple.

AzDon
01-11-2004, 12:44 PM
Jake-
Your advocacy of the cheapening of certain segments of the labor market as being "American" and a normal function of "supply and demand" shows a complete lack of sensitivity for hard working Americans in career fields that are under attack by budget axe schemes and oversupply of cheap foriegn labor. You come across as someone who has a career that is completely immune from suffering these price pressures that is gloating over it as you tell the rest of us to get better jobs! Well guess what? This steady march toward cheaper labor costs will eventually affect every job in America! Think not? Well, let me use this example:
Lets say you're, hmmm, lets say you're a real estate broker!.... Houses always seem to buy and sell...always for higher prices... and your industry price-fixes your percentage so you'll never have to worry about price competition! Displaced factory workers, harbor truckers, aerospace workers, Enron executives etc. and others who've seen their wages reduced by wage competition decide that they want to start selling real estate and make the big bucks like you! Pretty soon, there's an oversupply of people selling real estate, even among those that stress service, by providing a flashy presentation. Soon, the companies that want the listings are found to be offering monetary service guarantees, lower percentage fees, or rebates, essentially cheapening the wages of anybody that wishes to compete and remain in this field.
At the same time, the laws of supply and demand should dictate that if wages are dropping all around us, that an oversupply of overpriced housing should be stockpiling, since banks usually wont loan money to someone who doesn't have the income required to make the payments and fewer of these buyers exist.....
What your wage "supply and demand" argument ignores, is that the World depends on the US to be the consumers for their goods yet most of the World buy very little from us because our high wages make our products and services too expensive. Your argument is that uncompetitive, high wage companies should cease to exist and unfortunately, that's what happens!
When (collectively) our wages have dropped to "World market" (or third world) levels, who will the World's corporations market their products to?
If we can't support our domestic industries, who provide civilized wages and working conditions, by paying higher prices for their goods/services, then how can we look those workers in the eye as we ask them to support whatever our niche is?

AzDon
01-11-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
[B]
Our Bancrupt school system is not the illegals fault—it’s government. Education should be private…like it was before the Great American Socialist, FDR. Our public healthcare system is also in peril because of the government. If you had read my post closely, you would have remembered that I propose NO HANDOUTS TO ANYONE FOR ANYTHING, CITIZEN OR NOT.
Let me guess.... You're a rich guy whose parents sent you to private school, and you don't believe that the children of the gardener, or the waitress that pours your coffee, or the truck drivers that have delivered literally every tangible item you own.... YOU DON'T BELIEVE THESE KIDS DESERVE EDUCATION BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS DON"T HAVE A BIG-BUCKS JOB LIKE YOU DO?
Perhaps you think that an illiterate society would function better? The oversupply of workers that are able to read and write is something that American business has taken advantage of for far too long and is a happy result of 100 years of collectively-funded, public education.
Perhaps you also would enjoy being infected by third-world diseases that would be everywhere in the absense of our public-health system!
And while we're on the subject of "socialist" programs that should irritate us:
I suppose you'd have no problem with buying up your own real estate and hiring road crews to build roads for you to drive on. You'd have no problem with building your own water system to bring Colorado River water to your faucets, and you'd have no problem with funding your own police and fire protection, and military too.
If you really don't like the laws, comforts, and social insurances that the rest of us enjoy and have voted to provide, through representative government, then perhaps you should find yourself a piece of virgin real estate, say, in South America, where you can start from scratch, unfettered by the expense of the collective infrastructure that you don't feel obligated to pay for!!

JakeAisA
01-11-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by AzDon
Jake-
Your advocacy of the cheapening of certain segments of the labor market as being "American" and a normal function of "supply and demand" shows a complete lack of sensitivity for hard working Americans in career fields that are under attack by budget axe schemes and oversupply of cheap foriegn labor. You come across as someone who has a career that is completely immune from suffering these price pressures that is gloating over it as you tell the rest of us to get better jobs! Well guess what? This steady march toward cheaper labor costs will eventually affect every job in America! Think not? Well, let me use this example:
Lets say you're, hmmm, lets say you're a real estate broker!.... Houses always seem to buy and sell...always for higher prices... and your industry price-fixes your percentage so you'll never have to worry about price competition! Displaced factory workers, harbor truckers, aerospace workers, Enron executives etc. and others who've seen their wages reduced by wage competition decide that they want to start selling real estate and make the big bucks like you! Pretty soon, there's an oversupply of people selling real estate, even among those that stress service, by providing a flashy presentation. Soon, the companies that want the listings are found to be offering monetary service guarantees, lower percentage fees, or rebates, essentially cheapening the wages of anybody that wishes to compete and remain in this field.
At the same time, the laws of supply and demand should dictate that if wages are dropping all around us, that an oversupply of overpriced housing should be stockpiling, since banks usually wont loan money to someone who doesn't have the income required to make the payments and fewer of these buyers exist.....
What your wage "supply and demand" argument ignores, is that the World depends on the US to be the consumers for their goods yet most of the World buy very little from us because our high wages make our products and services too expensive. Your argument is that uncompetitive, high wage companies should cease to exist and unfortunately, that's what happens!
When (collectively) our wages have dropped to "World market" (or third world) levels, who will the World's corporations market their products to?
If we can't support our domestic industries, who provide civilized wages and working conditions, by paying higher prices for their goods/services, then how can we look those workers in the eye as we ask them to support whatever our niche is?
I don't agree with some of your economic premises here and I don't have enough time explain them to you for I'm working on Sunday I and I have little time for it...But...If you're asking me what I would do if the market put me out of a job?
I'D FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO!!! I'M NOT AFRAID OF COMPETITION! COMPETITION MAKES ME BETTER, IT MAKES MY COMPANY BETTER, IT MAKES OUR ECONOMY BETTER AND THERE'S NO WAY IN HELL I WOULD EVER EXPECT YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE(THROUGH GOVERNMENT) TO SUPPORT ME WHEN IT IS APPARENT I CANNOT COMPETE!
I am not entitle to happiness...at your expense. I'm not entitled to "life long, dependable employment"...at your expense. I'm not asking you to sacrifice for me; explain to me how all of us sacrificing our hard earned money to support poor businesses is good for America? It will lead us to mediocrity.

JakeAisA
01-11-2004, 02:29 PM
Thanks Beast! JakeA, you are very glib and a master with words however YOUR views on this topic are definately in the minority. Thanks Beast! JakeA, you are very glib and a master with words however YOUR views on this topic are definately in the minority. As we are in California, and HERE is where the problem lies then yes you'd be partially correct in assuming that my problem is with Mexicans. As i said before YOU'D be partially correct but then again "when you assume, you make asses of you and me". Do not ever put words in my mouth or attribute anything to me that I do not specifically so state as it's not a wise move on your part. As long as you keep my remarks in context you may also quote me.
I was deducting this to be the only possible reason, assuming you fully understood the facts, for your still not open to the idea of immigration. I did not call you a racist—I said that if you understood that welfare was the problem and that if welfare were eliminated and we still had immigrants coming here, earning everything at their own expense, you would have to conclude that one is a racist if they still were opposed to Mexicans immigrating here under that scenario. Fortunately for you, I believe in my heart, you are not a racist...I believe you don’t understand the facts.
You are trying to come across as an intellectual and going overboard trying to press your point however it appears that you are the only one on this forum that can't understand what the entire POINT of my posts has been.
I understand your point, clearly—crystal clear. I’m telling you that there’s only one way to protect our borders from illegal immigration—ELIMINATE THE HIGHLY LUCRATIVE AND DESTRUCTIVE INCENTIVE TO GET HERE—WELFARE!
There wouldn’t be women and children jumping the border illegally—that segment of the illegals that is jumping now would virtually disappear. Then, I propose, you make it easier for one to “legally” immigrate here. This is the American way and it would be much easier patrol the border against real threats. If you encourage Mexicans looking for work to walk through the checkpoint, documented, then you know that the guys that aren’t willing to “legally” immigrate here are criminals or terrorists or no good for whatever reason. Let’s get real. You cannot stop immigration, you ought not want to stop immigration. So why leave a failed system in place where you have virtually no control over who gets in and where you have no information on who is here.
To your points about the “illigallity” of these migrants—I understand they broke the law—but do you blame them? The United States of America is the last and best great hope to the world. Our freedom is unmatched, the opportunity is abundant like no other place—it is a compliment us all that people die trying to become like us. There has never been another country on the face of the planet where people risk their lives (like their escaping Auschwitz) to get into a country. Some of these people could have been shot had they been caught escaping their country only to risk the same fate TRYING TO GET INTO THIS COUNTRY!
The American Way of Life is an idea and it’s spiritual. That’s what makes America different from every other country that has ever existed—we were founded by an idea and a dream and we continue to be bound by that idea. Every other nation is founded by conquest, race, religion or something else “collective”, but not America.
Furthermore, this dream, this idea was created by immigrants—throughout all 228 years of America’s history.
We have so many “illegal” immigrants because people like you are so opposed to any more immigrants here—even legal immigrants. We have made laws limiting immigration. Laws that are economically taxing because force valuable immigrants with great potential to act like criminals to get here. Fifty years ago they were welcome. We make it worse by encouraging loathsome types to immigrate here so they may eat at our welfare trough like pigs.
Fifty years ago, there wasn’t a problem with immigration. Everyone who wanted to be an American could come here and work for it, through their own effort. It wasn’t until President Johnson so expanded welfare and the state of California turned into the People’s Republic of California did immigration become a problem. Our own socialism has encouraged the wrong type of immigrant to come here and in far more numbers then there would be without the attraction of our plentiful, socialistic handouts.
IT'S THE ****ING BEHAVIOR ! WHAT PART OF ILLEGAL DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? I don't give a rat's ass if the violators were sea otters or real estate brokers, when they come across the border illegally- 2 rounds in the center body mass! I don't give a flying **** what the reason is for the breaking of the law. IT DOES NOT MATTER!
As for your apparent issue with my being a real estate broker…are you looking to sell your home or refinance soon?

JakeAisA
01-11-2004, 02:55 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AzDon [B]Let me guess.... You're a rich guy whose parents sent you to private school, and you don't believe that the children of the gardener, or the waitress that pours your coffee, or the truck drivers that have delivered literally every tangible item you own.... YOU DON'T BELIEVE THESE KIDS DON"T DESERVE EDUCATION BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS DON"T HAVE A BIG-BUCKS JOB LIKE YOU DO?
Dude, you couldn't have ever gotten it any more wrong. Don't take up poker, cuz you suck.
I am not wealthy. My parents are not wealthy; they never have been wealthy. My mother and father did send me to a private University and they bankrupted themselves doing it. My father had two cars repossessed, unbeknownst to me because he knew I would have objected, because he chose to pay my tuition bill over his rent and car payments. I graduated from that University with a B+ average and I get angry with myself for not trying harder because I owed it to my father. I don’t have a big bucks job…yet. I made $20,000, total, my first two years after graduating from Business School. I now have my own company, but trust me, I earned it.
Perhaps you think that an illiterate society would function better? The oversupply of workers that are able to read and write is something that American business has taken advantage of for far too long and is a happy result of 100 years of collectively-funded, public education.
You’re absolutely correct about public education. Parents would be better off keeping their children out of public schools and letting them run free then let the government warp and brainwash their impressionable minds.
Perhaps you also would enjoy being infected by third-world diseases that would be everywhere in the absense of our public-health system!
I have no idea what you’re talking about here.
And while we're on the subject of "socialist" programs that should irritate us: suppose you'd have no problem with buying up your own real estate and hiring road crews to build roads for you to drive on.
Why not? Are you suggesting that only the government knows how to build roads? Jesus, they spend 50 times what it costs to build a road then they can’t maintain it.
You'd have no problem with building your own water system to bring Colorado River water to your faucets, and you'd have no problem with funding your own police and fire protection, and military too.
Not military and police. This is the proper role of government and it can only be performed by government. Fire though? It could be done by the private sector, but don’t we have a lot of other noble problems to tackle first?
If you really don't like the laws, comforts, and social insurances that the rest of us enjoy and have voted to provide, through representative government, then perhaps you should find yourself a piece of virgin real estate, say, in South America, where you can start from scratch, unfettered by the expense of the collective infrastructure that you don't feel obligated to pay for!!
We have a binding set of rules in this country that are supposed to be immune from violation by any number of votes—it’s called the US Constitution. Your socialist programs are not designated to be the responsibility of government by the Constitution—anywhere!
If you like you welfare, why don’t you move? To any other country on this planet to start.

Dr. Eagle
01-11-2004, 05:21 PM
Gotta agree with you jake. We in the US are becoming slaves to two levels of government that most other countries don't have. Under the US constitution the State Governments are envisioned as the primary functionary government that touches the people.
The Federal Government was intended to settle differences between the states, provide a single voice for the nation to foreign governments and provide for the common defence of the country.
Somehow over the years, the intent of our founders has been perverted into what amounts to basically two levels of primary government. The UK has one federal type of government that deals with everything. I wish there were a way to undo all of the winchester house type of add ons to the federal government here, but that will NEVER happen. May as well just do away with state government, I don't know how much longer we can afford all of this dead weight....

AzDon
01-11-2004, 06:00 PM
I never said that I support welfare or any other program that gives taxpayer funds to people that have not worked to support the system. Actually, I've made this quite clear on numerous occasions when others on this board have also tried to label me with every negative liberal stereotype that most "electable" Democrats ditched close to 15 years ago!
I DO however, support the existence of collective government insurance schemes such as Unemployment Insurance, Disability, Social Security, Medicare, and limited, temporary help requiring repayment for folks with problems that don't fit the other categories. I believe that this help should not be in cash form, but should require the recipients to, essentially join the military for 2 years to recieve "life training".
.I believe that people that feel that everybody should personally fund all their own services, such as education, roads, fire protection, police, etc. are really just elitists that are implying that, although they can afford to fund these things, they know that a lot of the costs of these things would be prohibitive to folks at the lower end of the income scale, and rather than funding a larger share of the cost through collective funding, they would prefer that the poor do without the benefits of these improvements that they haven't paid a full share for.
Isn't it interesting that the same folks that make these arguments are often the same folks suggesting that others should be happy to work for 50 cents an hour if that's all that's offered, and that government should have no role in setting minimum standards for wages and conditions in the workplace. These people place little or no value on the labor of the underpaid people that actually do the work that makes the infrastructure run, taking the infrastructure for granted as something that is just there!
The beauty of the"American Dream" is that it is a dream that is accesible to ALL citizens without regard for income level. It is a system that acknowleges the value of ALL job decriptions, even the underpaid ones, by allowing participation in society and use of the collective infrastructure even if your income level means that your taxes don't cover your share! It is a system that isn't stacked against you if you have ambition and also lets you know that you are on your own if you fall into the gray area above the "welfare state" level.
You are quite correct that we need rid of the "welfare state" but way off base when you suggest termination of collective infrastructure.
My suggestion was that if you have a problem with paying for your share of the collective infrastructure, perhaps you should start from scratch and create your own!
If I (as you suggest) love the welfare state, why would I go anywhere but California?

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
01-12-2004, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
"Buying American" is Un-American. Yup, that's right, you heard me right--Buying American is Un-American. To buy something strictly because of who made it is Un-American. It's Anti- Capitalist and it's destructive to your own business and country.
When you buy something, like a T-Shirt, or better yet, Steel, if you consider where it came from instead of the price or quality of the product (assuming it's not stolen or produced by slave labor or something) then you are destroying value, you're taking money you've made and you're burning it, you're taking hours of work and throwing it away--and that is Un-American.
If you're an automobile manufacturer and you only buy steel from Pittsburgh, at higher then market prices, for the sole reason that it was forged by "Americans" and not "Japanese", you're destroying value and that is Un-American. The profit you have thrown away by increasing your costs translates to less money for your own company. That means you have less to grow, to hire, to advertise, to produce. And everything you might think of doing to make it up, can be done anyway--so there's no way to make up that lost value. You may say--well, let's build a better car--why didn't you build a better car before? You might say--let's become more efficient in production--why didn't you do that before? There is no way to regain that destructed value and it translates to higher prices, layoffs and slower growth (less money to re-invest and grow). But, be happy if you want, your steel working buddies will have jobs and they'll be flourishing...even though they're not the best at what they do and they only do it because "that's what they've always done and Goddamnit, that want to die a steelworker."
But why should the rest of the economy suffer so steelworkers can retire as steelworkers? That's not Capitalism and that's not American.
When the automobile first started to flourish, did we tell Buggy Whip manufacturers that they had a right to continue on as Buggy Whip manufacturers, with the same production, profit and future as they had before thier product was obsolete? No, we bought cars and those people had to learn something else. That's capitalism. That's American. When a new technology comes around, it was probably invented by Americans because we're entrepreneurial, flexible and ambitious. When a product goes obsolete, we junk it and adopt the new and improved product. There is nothing American about supporting poor and dying businesses becuase they're operated by "Americans." What does that do for our economy and the companies who will no longer be able to compete because they're left out cold and weren't considered as valuable as the "steelworkers" or the "Buggy Whip" makers.
My point is proven by our unemployment rate itself. American automobile manufacturers could not compete against foreign automakers because they paid much more for a valuable component of thier business--labor. They paid more for American labor then foreign competitors did for thiers. That left more value for the foreign automakers to spend on every other aspect of their business. American automakers responded in the only way they could if they wanted to survive--they moved manufacturing south of the border or overseas. Thousands and thousands of people were laid off over a period of years and it was doom and gloom we were told. But what happened? Are these people still unemployed? No, they learned another trade because when it came down to it, they had no choice and it's the American way. Our unemployment rate is what, 6%? Where are all the unemployed as a result of international trade? What about the ripple effects? Where is the doom and gloom? Not to mention, most of that 6% unemployment is what they call "frictional unemployment". Which means that about 3.5-4% of of the this 6% number is not really unemployed, but they're in between jobs or they're contractor types that have finished a job and have not yet started the next job. So what we're really talking about here is 2 to 2.5% unemployment, right now, given the fact that so many businesses have shipped production overseas. The American worker and the US Economy survived "outsourcing"!!! Oh my god, people learned new skills and they didn't end up in soup kitchens. And guess what? Those companies that outsourced are flourishing too. Why? Because they had more value to re-invest in thier business. That translates to better products, at lower prices, to everyone. And that also means that grandma and grandpa's share's in that company, or your shares, are worth more.
Buying American is Un-American.
I'm glad you brought up the japanese steel issue. I have a question for you. In the event we ever became involved in a war with Japan do you think they would sell the govt. steel to manufacture equipment/munitions etc.? we have no industry left in this country other than the entertainment industry:rolleyes: which in my un-american opinion leaves us very vulnerable in the event of another world war (god forbid)
Omega

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Gotta agree with you jake. We in the US are becoming slaves to two levels of government that most other countries don't have. Under the US constitution the State Governments are envisioned as the primary functionary government that touches the people.
The Federal Government was intended to settle differences between the states, provide a single voice for the nation to foreign governments and provide for the common defence of the country.
Somehow over the years, the intent of our founders has been perverted into what amounts to basically two levels of primary government. The UK has one federal type of government that deals with everything. I wish there were a way to undo all of the winchester house type of add ons to the federal government here, but that will NEVER happen. May as well just do away with state government, I don't know how much longer we can afford all of this dead weight....
Our success as a "mixed" economy (part free, part slavery) is a tribute to power of captilism, freedom and the American spirit. Our US Consitutition was the blue print for what the Federal Government should look like and it was meant to a document that specifically laid out the ONLY powers government had. The Federal Government looks very little like that blue print intended and the US Constitution has been intrepreted backwards from it's explicit meaning--Government now beleive that the Constitution spells out the only things government CANNOT do as opposed to spelling out ONLY things it CAN do.
Read the Constitution. Read the tenth amendment--it says that if the power is not explicity given to the government in this Constitution then it's hands off to the government.
The Tenth Amendment Reads:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Someone should go find in the Constitution where 99% of the Government programs and Authorities are given power from.
The amazing thing is that we're still the greatest and best hope this planet has ever seen, and we're only a fraction of what we could be due to our gradual allowing of Government to kill the American spirit and nationalize or control half of the economy. We're still the freest, most successful, most prosperous nation ever known--and we're half of what we could be!!!
It's a testament to the ideas of capitalism and freedom, or what I like to call, The United States of America.

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 11:22 AM
I DO however, support the existence of collective government insurance schemes such as Unemployment Insurance, Disability, Social Security, Medicare, and limited, temporary help requiring repayment for folks with problems that don't fit the other categories. I believe that this help should not be in cash form, but should require the recipients to, essentially join the military for 2 years to recieve "life training".
2 Years? Why not tell them to get a job? In 2 years they can be proficient in any field. See, the problem isn’t “temporary” help, the problem is that the “permanent responsibility for your own welfare and your family’s welfare” has been wiped out of the American psyche.
.I believe that people that feel that everybody should personally fund all their own services, such as education, roads, fire protection, police, etc. are really just elitists that are implying that, although they can afford to fund these things, they know that a lot of the costs of these things would be prohibitive to folks at the lower end of the income scale, and rather than funding a larger share of the cost through collective funding, they would prefer that the poor do without the benefits of these improvements that they haven't paid a full share for.
Here’s where you’re wrong. Do you think monopolies are okay? You probably don’t (I’d bet on it). Why? The most obvious answer is that they’re immune from competition, right? Why do you think granting the “Government” a monopoly is different then granting AT&T a monopoly? There is no difference, in fact, AT&T’s government granted monopoly was less destructive then the Government’s current monopolies in education and medical services.
Take education for example. When was the last time you told your children that they better do their homework, they better not slack off in school, and they better pay attention because “damn it, you paid good money for that schooling and you want your money’s worth!”. When was the last time you went to your child’s teacher and told her that you didn’t approve of her your child’s curriculum because you paid good money for them to learn how to read, write and master arithmetic and you’ve learned they spend more time learning how to “socialize with others, watching classroom movies, learning how to plant trees, etc.”? You’ve probably never told your child’s teacher that you wanted your money’s worth, right? Why? Because you didn’t directly pay for it! You’ve probably never told you’re your school’s principle that you didn’t want your child in classes with children that didn’t want to be their because it cuts down the time the teacher you paid for, to teach your child, right? You’ve never said that, I know you haven’t. Why? Because it’s a monopoly and it’s funded through the government’s extorted tax revenues from us. We grew up under it, we went through it, and we accept this destructive monopoly as an absolute.
Before the 1930’s, the government didn’t have a monopoly on education. We went through the industrial revolution without government education.
Government education is so expensive, so destructive and it teaches are children very little. Most school systems in America pump out children that read below grade level. In California, we pump out, on average, children that read at 1-2 grade levels below their actual grade level. Furthermore, in California, the government spends $7,800 per child. Private schools spend about $3,600 per child and almost all children read at or above grade level from private schools. The largest private school system is the Los Angeles Arch Diocese and they spend $2,800 per child and almost every child reads at or above grade level.
We spend upwards of 3-4 times as much in Government Education on each child for results that are, on average, 3-4 grade levels below in terms of reading, writing and math.
Why? Because there’s no threat that you can pull your kid out and take them to another school that stresses better reading, writing and math. There’s no fear from principles and teachers that you’ll disappointed in the results they provide you. They sit lazily and complacent on top of this monopoly train knowing that they’ll never have to produce and they’ll never have to worry about the parents being disappointed.
My suggestion was that if you have a problem with paying for your share of the collective infrastructure, perhaps you should start from scratch and create your own!
Stop telling me to pay for Un-Constitutional “collectivist” programs. Tell me how these things are Constitutional and stop telling me that America needs Collectivism. Collectivism was embodied by the Soviet Union, America used to embody Laisze- Faire Capitalism, don’t tell me we need more, or any, of the Soviet form of government.

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by riodog
Jake, every time you post you show your ignorance and do your parents a great disservice for the way they wasted their hard-earned money. What a waste! You didn't even learn to read OR you're just so intent upon trying to force your "off on a tangent ideas" on others. I'll bet your parents sent you away to school out of pure frustration and maybe the money wasn't wasted after all. READ THE %^&$# POSTS! Page 2, my first post ,Junior, I'm well aware of the facts and I 've already told you once that it's not a great idea to try and put words in my mouth. What are you ****IN STUPID? You denigrated every one else on this thread with -You don't understand but I'm so damn smart I'll splain it and show you the way-. If you'd read what others have to say instead of thinking you're so damned important that you have all of the answers then others might just put some stock in what you have to say. The topic of this thread WASN'T how to solve all of the immigration problems! ( I'm trying to make it simple so can follow along). I NEVER said that I wasn't open to the idea of immigration (you put words in my mouth). While I do not have to justify anything to you I will state that one of the people that I respect the very most did come from Mexico where he was an "owner/operator"- that pertains to big trucks just so you'll understand- and it took him a little over 4 years to "get permission" for his family and himself to enter this country LEGALLY! Ever since, his extended family has been trying to pressure him into letting them SNEAK in and come live with him. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN ! Hate to say it but this person is a better "citizen" than I am- (won't even break the speed limit-(frustrating as all get out when he comes to the river with us-) and he can damn sure read and understand better than you- and he didn't even finish school! Did I say he (and family-2 boys, wife) are CITIZENS. He took the test and passed-DID YOU? HIM=respect, you=pity- He follows these forums somewhat however I'm not sure he wants the attention so I won't name him but if he chooses-maybe he'll pipe up and set you straight.
Being the FNG (****ing new guy-do you even have a boat?) and so wrapped up in yourself I wouldn't think that you would have any idea who you talking to or where I stand on just about every issue that's come up so I'll put it to you in the simplist langauge I can whether you want it or not. My position is "obey the law", "do what's right ", and "play fair". I'm very adamant in my beliefs- if they won't OBEY THE VERY FIRST LAW THAT PERTAINS TO THEM, WHY DO WE WANT OR NEED THEM HERE? If I lived in that cesspool then YES I would want to leave also but that still is NO JUSTIFICATION to violate the laws of another country. I'm really at a loss to understand why you don't "get it"! As citizens of this country we are entitled to the protection of our gov't. We are not getting it! We are spending billions to make sure nothing comes at us from the air and all the while it's crawling here on it's belly.
BE ADVISED: if I wake up one night to find you standing over me in my home- you will die! I don't give a damn if you just wanted something to eat because you're hungry! If you had come to the front door and asked- I would have fed you. Understand?
Rio aka M.W Fulton
Wow. Where do I start? (Do you have some issues, dude?) Did I attack your manhood or something? Do you own this website? Can you discuss anything without resorting to common gutter language? Wow.
First, I didn't put words into your mouth...I disagreed with you. And apparently disagreement is something you don't like kindly to. I'm not afraid of rants and I'm responding to it for the benefit of others who read this post. I firmly beleive in my heart that you cannot be proven wrong by anyone so longs as they don't let you think you discovered the truth on your own.
But, like I said, I didn't put words into your mouth. My point is, that if you understand all of the economic and moral aspects of this problem, you would encourage immigration at best, or not give a care in the world at the worst--unless you were a racist. I didn't call you a racist, I didn't imply you were a racist. I simply said that if you understood the facts perfectly and were still hold the position you have, then you are either ignorant or racist.
I don't beleive you are ignorant or racist--I beleive you are misinformed.
I just wish you had some manners though.

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by riodog
Jake, every time you post you show your ignorance and do your parents a great disservice for the way they wasted their hard-earned money. What a waste! You didn't even learn to read OR you're just so intent upon trying to force your "off on a tangent ideas" on others. I'll bet your parents sent you away to school out of pure frustration and maybe the money wasn't wasted after all. READ THE %^&$# POSTS! Page 2, my first post ,Junior, I'm well aware of the facts and I 've already told you once that it's not a great idea to try and put words in my mouth. What are you ****IN STUPID? You denigrated every one else on this thread with -You don't understand but I'm so damn smart I'll splain it and show you the way-. If you'd read what others have to say instead of thinking you're so damned important that you have all of the answers then others might just put some stock in what you have to say. The topic of this thread WASN'T how to solve all of the immigration problems! ( I'm trying to make it simple so can follow along). I NEVER said that I wasn't open to the idea of immigration (you put words in my mouth). While I do not have to justify anything to you I will state that one of the people that I respect the very most did come from Mexico where he was an "owner/operator"- that pertains to big trucks just so you'll understand- and it took him a little over 4 years to "get permission" for his family and himself to enter this country LEGALLY! Ever since, his extended family has been trying to pressure him into letting them SNEAK in and come live with him. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN ! Hate to say it but this person is a better "citizen" than I am- (won't even break the speed limit-(frustrating as all get out when he comes to the river with us-) and he can damn sure read and understand better than you- and he didn't even finish school! Did I say he (and family-2 boys, wife) are CITIZENS. He took the test and passed-DID YOU? HIM=respect, you=pity- He follows these forums somewhat however I'm not sure he wants the attention so I won't name him but if he chooses-maybe he'll pipe up and set you straight.
Being the FNG (****ing new guy-do you even have a boat?) and so wrapped up in yourself I wouldn't think that you would have any idea who you talking to or where I stand on just about every issue that's come up so I'll put it to you in the simplist langauge I can whether you want it or not. My position is "obey the law", "do what's right ", and "play fair". I'm very adamant in my beliefs- if they won't OBEY THE VERY FIRST LAW THAT PERTAINS TO THEM, WHY DO WE WANT OR NEED THEM HERE? If I lived in that cesspool then YES I would want to leave also but that still is NO JUSTIFICATION to violate the laws of another country. I'm really at a loss to understand why you don't "get it"! As citizens of this country we are entitled to the protection of our gov't. We are not getting it! We are spending billions to make sure nothing comes at us from the air and all the while it's crawling here on it's belly.
BE ADVISED: if I wake up one night to find you standing over me in my home- you will die! I don't give a damn if you just wanted something to eat because you're hungry! If you had come to the front door and asked- I would have fed you. Understand?
Rio aka M.W Fulton
Are you for real? You know absolutely nothing about me. Besides, debating ideas should have nothing to do with who’s debating them…it should be about the ideas themselves. You’ve lost if you have to resort name calling and personal attacks. Why don’t you save your breath and argue your points.

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
I'm glad you brought up the japanese steel issue. I have a question for you. In the event we ever became involved in a war with Japan do you think they would sell the govt. steel to manufacture equipment/munitions etc.? we have no industry left in this country other than the entertainment industry:rolleyes: which in my un-american opinion leaves us very vulnerable in the event of another world war (god forbid)
Omega
No it doesn't. Name two democracies that have ever gone to war with eachother. The free only war with the un-free. Think about it. How could it ever get to that point? Our interests withother are completely about trade and mutual interests. We PRODUCE and TRADE. That's the difference between Capitalism and Collectivism. First, it was Kings that stole and conquered to acquire wealth. Then, it was collectivists that stole, conquered and nationalized for it's wealth. America was the first to completly reject these forms of wealth accumilation becuase we were smart enough to realize that wealth is CREATED out of effort, invention, labor and trade--it's not a zero sum game. As a result, there is nothing to gain ever by waring with another free nation. If we are both free, then we both trade.
Now, if they are not free--then it is the responsibility of the President of the United States and the Federal Government to make sure that we don't trade with them, for the reasons you've stated and because of the fact that we would be accomplices in thier acts of slavery. We should not be buying oil from the Middle East and we should not be trading with China. They are brutal regimes that enslave thier people and we ought to have nothing to do with it.

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by riodog
Never said I was a puter wiz!
Rio:confused:
I know I've posted alot this morning, but wow! I'm still amazed at your hostillity riodog. Are you this hostile in your personal life? Or is this just your online personality?

HighRoller
01-12-2004, 11:55 AM
I know everybody says so much about how much illegals "contribute" to our country. But what about their plundering? They sent 10 BILLION dollars of California's money to Mexico last year. God forbid one of them moves into your neighborhood because you can kiss your property values goodbye. Not to mention they don't pay taxes, drive cheap ass uninsured cars and divide the rent fourteen ways. So where is the big "contribution"? I'd gladly pay 50 cents more for a head of lettuce to be rid of these cockroaches, and that's exactly what they are. Cheap labor to an illegal is like rotting food to a roach. Wherever you find it, you'll find them. Then they breed and before you know it they're everywhere!

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by HighRoller
I know everybody says so much about how much illegals "contribute" to our country. But what about their plundering? They sent 10 BILLION dollars of California's money to Mexico last year. God forbid one of them moves into your neighborhood because you can kiss your property values goodbye. Not to mention they don't pay taxes, drive cheap ass uninsured cars and divide the rent fourteen ways. So where is the big "contribution"? I'd gladly pay 50 cents more for a head of lettuce to be rid of these cockroaches, and that's exactly what they are. Cheap labor to an illegal is like rotting food to a roach. Wherever you find it, you'll find them. Then they breed and before you know it they're everywhere!
You should be able to have a right to start a neighbor that is exclusive...you have right to associate with anybody you want in America and, conversely, dissasociate. To do so, would require you to move to, or start, a neighborhood that restricts ownership. Unfortunately, our Government has made that illigal. But, having said that. If you move into a neighborhood or city that doesn't have those rules or associations in place already, then tough. When you buy your property, you only own your property. You do not have a right to restrict the ownership of somebody else's property. If you don't want Mexicans with 10 person families moving in next door--tough! If you don't like old cars on the road--tough! You have a right to your own property and that's it...you don't have a right to anyone else's. Sorry, but that's freedom.

NOTALENT
01-12-2004, 12:16 PM
That was beautiful man...My grandma lived in la puente, ca. When I would go there to visit all u would see is freakin mexico flags..even on the 4th of july..its f***ing bullshit. Love it or Leave it!!!! If they love mexico so freaking much why dont they go back and post up the flag there...!!!!!!

BUSTI
01-12-2004, 12:18 PM
I am 53 years old and remember very well what it was like in the 50's and early 60's with respect to immigration. The only people that would brave the trek north to America from Latin America were those people desiring to work! The American dream of endless opportunity attracted the best and brightest and the most ambitous of immigrants. And because of their motivation to work they were almost universally welcome. Welfare did not exist then so consequently freeloading immigrants did not exist then also.
For that matter freeloading Americans did not exist then as well. The enormous feed bag known as welfare has done more to destroy the motivation to work for millions of Americans since then. Unfortunately for America an unforseen consequence to welfare is that it became a magnet for the worst and the laziest of immigrants. Who flock here with no intentions of working! The welfare state has made it impossible to determine for the INS who is an illegeal immigrant desiring work from those illegals who just want to sponge of those that work..commonly known as the feed bag of welfare.
These are undisputed facts! Any and all economists woth their salt agree with what I just described above.
Unfortunately for you RIO your uncontrolled outbursts or personal attacks that sound off like " WHAT PART OF FING ILLEGAL DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND" is construed by most minorities as a code word for racism! I am sorry you don't like the perception but the fact remains that we have a welfare problem that has created an illegal immigration problem and your unwillingness to admitt that in the face of 35 years of welfare history...makes you look bad.
Be intellectually honest do you really resent immigrants that come here illegally just seeking work? And do you hold them in contempt just the way you would a no good fee loader desiring welfare as an illegal immigrant? If the country had had your attitude towards immigration for its first 200 years this country would not be the great nation it is today...period.
WHAT PART OF FING "WILLING TO WORK" DON'T YOU FING UNDERSTAND? Illegal immigration is a policy issue. eliminate the policy that attracts the bad lazy immigrants and ease the immigration POLICIES for those that want to work and the illegal immigration problem will go away. Pretty simple I think...why is that so hard for you to understand.
CHANGE THE POLICY THAT CREATES IAND OR ATTRACTS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND YOU WILL FIND THIS SUDDENLY BECIMES A NONISSUE!
NOT UNLESS YOU JUST HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IMMIGRANTS?

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 12:23 PM
Riodog (for the board's benefit, not Riodog's):
Can I ask you if you think marijuana should be legal? Should drugs be legal?
I think so.
How about Prohibition? During prohibition, would you have still drank?
How about Jim Crow laws in the South? Would you have obeyed these laws?
Government isn't a moral authority--it's only purpose is to ban the use of force and fraud in society, to enforce it with police and to protect us from foreign aggression--that's it. The government employs poor regulations and institutions all the time and we're not required to obey bad laws or participate in bad institutions. The government created this problem, we created this problem, with welfare. Mexicans have been immigrating here, like people from everyother nation on earth have, for this countries entire existence. This country is not yours to pick and choose who gets in or who gets to own what. This only became a problem when the government opened up for business--the welfare trough in 60's. Those were bad programs and they've been destructive. Now, is there merit to what you're saying--that immigrants should be coming through the front door on the border--yes. But don't you think it will be easier to get them to go through the front door if we discourage the the incompetant and lazy immigrants from coming here by cutting off welfare?

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Bropb16
That was beautiful man...My grandma lived in la puente, ca. When I would go there to visit all u would see is freakin mexico flags..even on the 4th of july..its f***ing bullshit. Love it or Leave it!!!! If they love mexico so freaking much why dont they go back and post up the flag there...!!!!!!
I agree. I cannot stand people not understanding the greatness of America. But remember, America is an idea--it's not a country built on race, religion or ethnic culture. Immigrants, and many US born citizens, are still locked into that mold...emotionally. But again, these people probably represent the bad immigrants I've been eluding to, attracted here by horrible welfare and immigration policies over the past 40 years or so.
Furthermore, there are many Americans who react to the American flag the same way Mexicans do to the Mexican flag--meaning that many US born Americans don't get the meaning of America--they to just happen to have been born in a given country and since they're locked into an emotion mold that causes them to be proud of "where they came from."

NOTALENT
01-12-2004, 12:34 PM
U know i dont mind the immagrants coming here living here etc...But What I do mind is The gangs, there neighborhoods...what they must think its cool to trash there neighbor hoods and write all over the walls and keep there homes looking like trash. I hate the fact that they are on welfare, I hate the fact that there poor and there still having kids they cant afford and then expect us americans to pay for them..I hate the fact that us or our childern are losing out on education because the school is over populated and because of that there is no way for the teacher to have one on ones. I hate that the fact that these immagrants claim there poor and need welfare but u see them driving escaldes on 24 inch rims that we paid for. I hate the fact that they broke into my car chevelle last christmas to steal my radio, did over 1000.00 worth of damage and didnt even take the radio they just broke it and cut my whole wiring harness...The list can go on and on forever...Damn Im glad I got that off my chest...They wonder why people dont want to help them...:mad: :mad: :mad:

Freak
01-12-2004, 12:59 PM
Until now here is an issue that NO ONE has really addressed.
OK Bush comes out with a half baked plan that will probably never pass muster, but you know what? It got people talking and looking for alternatives....I think that is super.
From reading all posts my conclusion is everybody is correct on the main topics.
Reform is needed in social programs and immigration.
Since when has Mexico dictated US immigration policy?? Why should America allow Mexico to dump it's poor on us instead of taking responsibility for the welfare of it's own citizens? The answer can be found in the bold highlighted portion of this article. Read on:
Fox Seeks More From Bush Immigration Plan
By JOHN RICE
Associated Press Writer
January 9, 2004, 5:50 AM EST
MEXICO CITY -- Government leaders Thursday praised the immigration reform proposed by President Bush, pledging to work with the U.S. Congress to ensure the measure passes.
But President Vicente Fox and the others indicated the new American proposal did not meet all their goals. "We're going for more. We're going for more," he told reporters during a visit to a shelter for street children.
Fox has repeatedly urged Bush to legalize the millions of Mexicans who cross the border illegally to work in the United States. The money they send home is Mexico's second-largest source of foreign income, behind oil.
That my friends just isn’t right.........

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
01-12-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
We should not be buying oil from the Middle East and we should not be trading with China. They are brutal regimes that enslave thier people and we ought to have nothing to do with it. according to you that is an UN-AMERICAN way of thinking. remember competition, quality, cheapest price, etc.
Omega

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
according to you that is an UN-AMERICAN way of thinking. remember competition, quality, cheapest price, etc.
Omega
You could have concluded that correctly because I didn't qualify my position by saying that your trading sphere should only be with free nations and willing, free participants. Trade should be between willing parties, acting in for thier own benefit, with mutual agreement and respect by both parties. When we trade with China, we're not trading with honest and willing parties. The products have been produced by slaves--there is nothing honest or willing about it. When we trade with Oil Producers in the Middle East, we not trading with honest parties who have a right to the oil they're selling--the oil actually belongs to American Oil companies for it was American Oil companies who bought the land, invested the capital and equipment and found the oil in the Middle East. The kings and dictators in the Middle East nationalized American Oil companyies' wells and equipment. They're selling us stolen oil produced currently by de facto slave labor.

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
01-12-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
You could have concluded that correctly because I didn't qualify my position by saying that your trading sphere should only be with free nations and willing, free participants. Trade should be between willing parties, acting in for thier own benefit, with mutual agreement and respect by both parties. When we trade with China, we're not trading with honest and willing parties. The products have been produced by slaves--there is nothing honest or willing about it. When we trade with Oil Producers in the Middle East, we not trading with honest parties who have a right to the oil they're selling--the oil actually belongs to American Oil companies for it was American Oil companies who bought the land, invested the capital and equipment and found the oil in the Middle East. The kings and dictators in the Middle East nationalized American Oil companyies' wells and equipment. They're selling us stolen oil produced currently by de facto slave labor.
well just remember you can't have your cake and eat it too!!! NAFTA mentions nothing of the criteria you speak of. they are your opinions on how things SHOULD be. In my opinion we should be a country with an independent economy, not all this globalized crap.......this trend will only lead to the extinction of the middle class and one more step in the direction of a socialist govt. The writing is on the walls. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer......middle class shrinks more every day.
Omega

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
well just remember you can't have your cake and eat it too!!! NAFTA mentions nothing of the criteria you speak of. they are your opinions on how things SHOULD be. In my opinion we should be a country with an independent economy, not all this globalized crap.......this trend will only lead to the extinction of the middle class and one more step in the direction of a socialist govt. The writing is on the walls. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer......middle class shrinks more every day.
Omega
"NAFTA mentions nothing of the criteria you speak of"
...of course it doesn't...because our politicians aren't philosiphically dedicated. But trading with Mexico is a lot different then trading with China. And Japan, which was the main point I made in my "Buying American is Un-American" post, is free.
"In my opinion we should be a country with an independent economy, not all this globalized crap......."
Can I ask you a question? Do you think you would be better off if your home city decided to become it's own "Independent Economy"? Why not? It's blatantly obvious that that would be a very, very bad idea for that economy, right? The same holds true on a national scale.
Why? Because of the concept of COMPARITIVE ADVANTAGE. Comparitive advantage means that one should specialize and produce the product that makes them the most money and then trade for the rest. This means that if American farmers are better at producing wheat then they are avacodos, they should produce wheat and trade with Mexico for avacados. If Mexico produces avacodos better then they produce wheat, they'll produce avacados and trade for wheat. Both parties are far better off specializing in what they're best at, or what they can make the most off of, then trying to produce both products independently.
Isn't this concept apparent? Can't you see that more value and wealth is created by producing and trading what you're good at producing for the goods and services that you're not good at?
This is exactly why tarrifs are value destroying. This is exactly why fewer and fewer American companies don't make computer components anymore, rather, we produce almost all of the software that computers run on. That's because we have a comparitive advantage in software.
This is exactly why we should buy cheaper steel from overseas instead of trying to produce it here. Japan has a comparitive advantage over the US in steel production. This hardcore fact of economics is why George Bush had to pass a law that limited Japanese Steel imports in order to make US steel producers competitive. The reality is that they (Japan) are better at producing steel then our companies are and the market was proving it. The government had to intervene for the sole purpose of placating a voting segment (steel workers). They artificially propped up a company by limiting the supply of a competitor. This destroyed value to those who buy steel and upwards of 30,000 people have been proven to have been put out of work as a result.
Regarding your remark "The writing is on the walls. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer......middle class shrinks more every day."
This is blatanly false. The rich get richer and there's nothing wrong with that--they created thier wealth. In America, wealth is created, not stolen. Besides, wealthy people employ people, they invest thier money into companies who produce cheaper and better products as a result, they invest in bonds and banks which makes funds available at low rates so you can buy a car or a home with amazingly low interest rates.
How in the hell can the "middle class" get smaller, other then by graduation to the "upper class" by recieving the bi-product of the wealthy's wealth creation--more jobs, cheaper products, lower interest rates? And as for the poor getting poorer? That's false too.
You're just saying this because it sounds good.

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
01-12-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
"
How in the hell can the "middle class" get smaller, other then by graduation to the "upper class" by recieving the bi-product of the wealthy's wealth creation--more jobs, cheaper products, lower interest rates? And as for the poor getting poorer? That's false too.
You're just saying this because it sounds good.
the middle class shrinks as more people move to the lower class. when you take away the jobs of steel workers and oil refinery crews you widdle away at the middle class. these people are settling for jobs with LESS pay and moving closer to the poverty level.
trickle down economics don't work chief!!! it has been tried several times and every time the same result. disaster, higher un-employment, greater deficit.
why don't you run the numbers on what % of americans comprise the middle and upper class today versus 50 years ago. I think you will see that percentage wise the middle class is shrinking and upper class is not growing. so where are they going????
Omega

JakeAisA
01-12-2004, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
the middle class shrinks as more people move to the lower class. when you take away the jobs of steel workers and oil refinery crews you widdle away at the middle class. these people are settling for jobs with LESS pay and moving closer to the poverty level.
trickle down economics don't work chief!!! it has been tried several times and every time the same result. disaster, higher un-employment, greater deficit.
why don't you run the numbers on what % of americans comprise the middle and upper class today versus 50 years ago. I think you will see that percentage wise the middle class is shrinking and upper class is not growing. so where are they going????
Omega
Steel workers and oil refinery crews are learning new trades; they aren't unemployed. Our unemployment rate proves this. You're just flat out wrong about more people becoming poor. Do you have a problem with people getting rich? That's what's been happening over the past twenty years, dude.
Trickle down economics pertains to the effects of tax cuts. When Kennedy cut taxes, the economy took off and that meant more investment, more jobs, better pay, lower prices, more home ownership. The same thing happened when Reagan did it and it's occuring in front our eyes right now.
You're wrong too about deficits and unemployment. Unemployment went down under reagan. Inflation went down under Reagan. Do you know where interest rates were when Reagan was elected? Almost 20%!!! Do you know where unemployment was? 9.6%!!! Do you know what they were when he left?!!! Interest rates were in the 8's and Unemployment was in the low 5's!!!!!!!!!
Deficits had nothing to do with "trickle down" economics (tax cuts). Revenues increased almost 200% under Ronald Reagan. And that still considers the first two years of his Presidency where we still in a deep recession and recovery. Now, you know what a deficit is, right? It's where your spending is more then your revenues. Who passes spending bills? Congress, right? Who controlled Congress? Democrats. Did you know that under Ronald Reagan, for every dollar he increased in Military spending, Congress spent $3 somewhere else? The Democrats used Reagans final assault on the Russians as political blackmail to spend like maniacs. Ronald Reagan had to give Congress thier increased spending in order to get his military spending. Cold War.
But I don't mind and neither should you. Becuase aren't deficits better then the threat of nuclear holocaust with the Soviets? If we had to go into debt for something as a country, is destroying the most dangerous country the world has ever known worth it?