real hunting

[quiet riot]

http://myweb.cableone.net/jlflanagan/lion.wmv

[JetBoatRich]

Nice when they fight back:) that guy is lucky he didn't get shot when the lion jumped at him from the other hunters

[Tom Brown]

Wow. That's some severe footage.

[Kachina26]

I didn't know you could still hunt lions. I'm all for killing deer and the usual game you find in the US, but somehow that just seemed wrong. Would of been cool if the lion got a better piece of that guy.

[Kilrtoy]

All those yahoos and still missed.
They are lucky....

[ratso]

OK, I'm not watching if they shot the lion...so...did they shoot the lion?

[Tom Brown]

No, the lion ends up fine. :)

[TRG]

what a "DICK"!... how typical is that?...always gotta go "BIG" until his ass bout got handed to him!! he should have got mauled by that tiger!
im not animal rights or anything, but there are some things that just, should not be hunted!! and this was a perfect display of that! just my .02! but a good video!lol todd

[JetBoatRich]

Originally posted by Tom Brown
No, the lion ends up fine. :)
And tell him he lived happily ever after:wink:

[ratso]

I don't know if I trust you Tom...

[Tom Brown]

Originally posted by ratso
I don't know if I trust you Tom...
You're a smart man, Ratso. :D

[Rexone]

Originally posted by toddnjuzz
he should have got mauled by that tiger!
I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I think that was a lion.

[JetBoatRich]

Originally posted by Rexone
I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I think that was a lion.
Dam I missed that quote, nice catch. LOL:D

[INXS]

mostly bow hunting, got about twenty deer in about ten years. That looked like a game preserve hunt. They probably got the lion from a zoo.
INXS :( :( :( :(

[Forkin' Crazy]

Originally posted by Kachina26
I didn't know you could still hunt lions. I'm all for killing deer and the usual game you find in the US, but somehow that just seemed wrong. Would of been cool if the lion got a better piece of that guy.
If you have enough money, you can do anything. There is a guy from here that shot a lion, a water buffalo, and a baboon. Why? Who knows...
I guess it keeps more idiots off the water....:eek:

[TRG]

Lions, Tigers or bears.....still wont mess with them!
P.S. hey rex...careful out on that limb, ey buddy?:p

[Ivan Dan]

What a bunch of tool boxes! These guys deserved to get mauled being that stupid.
www.DanKaatz.com

[THOR]

That kind of bothered me. I just cant see the enjoyment in that.

[Havasu Cig]

That is some F@#ked up shit. I agree with a lot of you, there are some animals that should not be hunted.
Anyone remember the Megadeth song from the early 90's that talked about hunters shooting animals that had been raised in cages to hunt. Good song, talked about the hunters having no balls.
I think some people hunting would be fun.;)

[svlperry]

how could take that many shots at it and not hit it

[WaterBox]

Fu#$@n Ass Hole's that kill or Abuse Animal's. I wish the Lion would have won...
I cheer four the Bull's at a rodeo...:D

[Pointerman]

Originally posted by WaterBox
Fu#$@n Ass Hole's that kill or Abuse Animal's. I wish the Lion would have won...
I cheer four the Bull's at a rodeo...:D
Yup, those dang chicken farmers! I always vote for the chickens at the slaughter houses, but the farmer always seems to win.
Sounds kind of stupid when you think about it, huh... someone has to kill an animal if you plan on eating any meat. :rolleyes:

[Havasu Cig]

Tell me your not comparing a chicken to a lion.:rolleyes:

[mbrown2]

That was a pretty intense video....I think the whole big money game reserve shit is just that....Lets invite a couple of rich guys over to shoot fish in a bucket...:(

[diggler]

Had a friend that really looked at that video. He was telling me that it was a killing pen specifically set up to kill big game like this. If you look real close in the video, you'll see part of the fence that encloses the area. I agree and so does he, that this is not any sport at all. In fact, it is a pretty disturbing video when you know more about what's happening.

[Sleek-Jet]

I can't see it, only get audio when I download.
Is this from some of those famous Texas "game" ranches???

[Havasu Cig]

You want to hunt some Dangerous Game???? Join the ARMY, tell them you want to go in the Infantry, and see if you can get sent to Iraq.
Lets see how big your balls are when you are being hunted at the same time:mad:

[miller19j]

Originally posted by svlperry
how could take that many shots at it and not hit it They hit it on the first shot you could hear the report of the bullet striking. The lion charge is from adrenaline it is pretty common in hunting dangerous game.

[Sleek-Jet]

Originally posted by miller19j
They hit it on the first shot you could hear the report of the bullet striking. The lion charge is from adrenaline it is pretty common in hunting dangerous game.
Good ear Miller, I had to listen a couple times to hear it.
Charging game is also a problem when not using enough gun.

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Sleek-Jet
Good ear Miller, I had to listen a couple times to hear it.
Charging game is also a problem when not using enough gun.
Actually just about anything hit in the Heart will run. The adrenaline rush takes over. The problem with dangerous game is that they have a tendency to charge instead of running away like plains game. That is why most people that hunt dangerous game shoot for the lungs.
One thing to keep in mind is that this animal may have been a man eater or it may have been going into villages and killing stock. There are many reasons to shoot lions and not all of them are just for sport. But I am not sure that is in a pen it may not even be in Africa there is a good chance that is at a Texas game ranch. One thing is for certain those guys have a lot of balls to take on a lion in close proximity!
Just for the record I am not a fan of penning up animals to shoot.

[Ducatista]

The jerks in that video should be hunted.....where do I sign up? I have no problem with hunting legally to control certain animal populations, but thats just wrong.:mad: Got to agree with Cig, try hunting something that can shoot back, join the Infantry.

[Havasu47]

**** the assholes that think they are men by shooting an animal with a scope and rifle. Explain the challenge. Pointerman, I don't think eating a chicken wing or hamburger relates to killing a lion.
That video disgusts me. They high five each other like they just finished a marathon. I hope their trigger finger recovers from all the work.

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Havasu47
**** the assholes that think they are men by shooting an animal with a scope and rifle. Clearly you have never been hunting :rolleyes:

[diggler]

Originally posted by miller19j
Clearly you have never been hunting :rolleyes:
Here's a movie from fellas using a scope. Those folks in Montana let all kinds of hunters come on their property to rid themselves of nuisance prairiedogs that screw up their livestock with their holes in the ground. Sick as it may be, I find it pretty amusing.
http://www.dogbegone.com/video/maxcarn.wmv

[unleashed]

I've been hunting before with my father in law. I think you definitly have to be a certain kind of person to hunt. I went once and will never do it again. It just seemed wrong being in such beautiful surroundings and killing an animal that was enjoying its enviornment in peace. I think maybe growing up in LA I dont get the mentality or what makes hunting so fun. I know when I visit freinds that live in the boonies its a way of life for them. There is no arguement I could give them that would change there views on hunting. I dont condone hunting but to each there own. Oh and dont try and tell me its a sport. Lets just call it what it is killing for the sake of pleasure!
As far as killing that lion in the video that was just plain sick but we dont know the circumstances. As someone else pointed out maybe it was killing the farmers cows or such. The high five thing was pretty gay though!
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) :devil:

[1stepcloser]

Originally posted by unleashed
I think you definitly have to be a certain kind of person to hunt.
And dont try and tell me its a sport. Lets just call it what it is killing for the sake of pleasure.
I gotta agree with this. It doesnt seem very sporting to attack an animal with a high powered rifle.
I'm not an activist or anything, I just happen to like animals, and dont feel that hunting is much of a "sport", unless you're willing to go at it with, say, a knife. or perhaps a bow. And then your doing it because you intend to use the meat for food.
I'm inclined to agree, reluctantly, with Havasu Cig's assesment of infantry battles.....at least in that case, the "sport" would seem fair, being that both are armed, and the odds seem pretty even.
But that just seems stupid, doesnt it?

[Sleek-Jet]

Actually, most hunting (at least in the Western world) is a wildlife managemant tool.
Here in Colorado, the elk heards are at historic populations, stronger now than at the turn of the last Century (1900). Mostly attributed to harvesting of animals on a selected basis (i.e. point restrictions and drawn tags, ect...)
Predetors are hunted to keep thier numbers in check. As an aside, the bear population has exploded due to curtailment some hunting practices.
I agree that it is not an activity that is suited for all people, but then again neither is going to the river and blasting around in your boat, that really pisses some people off.
Do we know the circumstances behind the lion getting shot? No, so It's hard to make an educated judgement if it was a trophy hunt or removing a dangerous and destuctive animal.

[flat broke]

I have nothing against those that hunt to for the better of the herd, to protect their livestock, or for sustenance, but the Elitist big game shit is GAY, and about as shit sorry as it gets.
People that hunt from blinds right in front of feeding locations where deer are fed all season fall into the same category as the jackoffs in that video. These are probably the same kind of fags that wouldnt drive through a rough neighborhood for fear of getting carjacked, but they're big bad ass mo'fos when you put 4 of them together with firearms, a guide that keeps em out of harms way, and set them out against one animal.
In general I feel that I would have far less remorse hunting down and killing a large populous of the human race vs. most of furry four legged critters running around. In my mind, the pride that is associated with killing of animals is lame and falsely won, but thats my opinion. I fully support my right to keep and bear arms, and don't have a beef with those that hunt under the circumstances outlined in my opening paragraph. If I was alone in the wild without the trappings of my current life, you can bet that I would be killing animals, but that is a far cry from what we saw in that video.
All the beliefs and crap asside, how lame are those jackasses that, A they would video the hunt, B they would think that poping a non leathal shot is something to be praised, C their display of shit sorry gun handling is something that should be shared with their friends. If it were me, that video would have never made the light of day if for no other reason than the fact that it made all involved look like piss poor marksmen.
On that note, anyone know where you can find a M82a1 for cheap? :)
Chris

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Sleek-Jet
Actually, most hunting (at least in the Western world) is a wildlife managemant tool.
Here in Colorado, the elk heards are at historic populations, stronger now than at the turn of the last Century (1900). Mostly attributed to harvesting of animals on a selected basis (i.e. point restrictions and drawn tags, ect...)
Predetors are hunted to keep thier numbers in check. As an aside, the bear population has exploded due to curtailment some hunting practices.
I agree that it is not an activity that is suited for all people, but then again neither is going to the river and blasting around in your boat, that really pisses some people off.
Do we know the circumstances behind the lion getting shot? No, so It's hard to make an educated judgement if it was a trophy hunt or removing a dangerous and destuctive animal. Very well put Sleek!

[BowTie Rick]

They are real lucky no one got blasted from cross fire. There was some serious panic going on and a ton of gun fire when it charged. Hunting for local game while following regulations is OK but taking an animal like a lion out of its environment to a ranch for the sole reason of killing it is messed up.

[Pointerman]

Not comparing a lion to a chicken. My post wasn't even in relation to this video.
The person I quoted said that anyone hurting an animal is a (insert explative). I always find humor in discussions related to hunting. Someone always pipes up and starts making statements about how all hunters are scum. Most of those folks are not vegetarians and have no problem plucking their beef or chicken out of the freezer section of the super market, but somehow people that kill their own meat are barbarians that need to be taught a lesson.
It is really quite sad. Just more proof that liberals generally don't think through their arguments. :D

[Pointerman]

Also, the end of the video states that it is a game ranch in South Africa. I doubt this was an animal being taken out because it was a nuisance. It was definitely being hunted for sport.

[THOR]

Originally posted by Pointerman
Not comparing a lion to a chicken. My post wasn't even in relation to this video.
The person I quoted said that anyone hurting an animal is a (insert explative). I always find humor in discussions related to hunting. Someone always pipes up and starts making statements about how all hunters are scum. Most of those folks are not vegetarians and have no problem plucking their beef or chicken out of the freezer section of the super market, but somehow people that kill their own meat are barbarians that need to be taught a lesson.
It is really quite sad. Just more proof that liberals generally don't think through their arguments. :D
I am pretty familiar with the meat, beef, pork, poultry and fish sections in the market, but I cant really remember seeing the lion section.

[Pointerman]

Originally posted by WaterBox
Fu#$@n Ass Hole's that kill or Abuse Animal's. I wish the Lion would have won...
I cheer four the Bull's at a rodeo...:D
Let me quote this again. Note the general reference made to anyone that kills animals. That is my issue. I'm not really fond of hunting animals that are trophy only (as in, the meat will not be consumed), but I also know that if we start going after other "activities" because they are uncivilized eventually someone will come after my/your hobby because they don't like it. It's risky business allowing "sports" to be outlawed.

[XTRM22]

Damn this thread has a lot of energy, I can't open the video but can only guess what it looks like. I am one of the card carrying (hunting license) hunters who frequents this board, I don't talk a lot about it cause I know alot of folks aren't interested, don't understand the mentality or are just plain against it. I kinda take acception to the "killing for pleasure" quote. Anyone who says there's no challenge in killing a deer with a rifle and scope is welcome to come hike with us for a few days next season. I honestly enjoy the hunt as much on years where I don't kill anything for what ever reason, but when I do it's a benefit of having the meat in the freezer. I don't hunt what I don't eat, I've become a lot less blood thirsty as I've gotten older. Here in Az. hunting is a wildlife management tool as well, it pretty much is everywhere in this country. We (the human race) have screwed up the natural cycles to the point that without wildlife management we'd have deer dying of starvation every winter. I must admit I've killed deer on a ranch in Texas (no this really wasn't hunting) the thing is that these deer aren't all that different from cattle raised to butcher. The rancher puts out feed, there are virtually no predators, and the they are managed by the property owner for the health of the herd.
I consider myself a hunter, I respect the animals I hunt and enjoy seeing them outside the season as well as during it. I put alot of effort in to clean kills and proper care of the meat afterward. I guess I just wanted to point out that every guy who walks out in the woods with a gun is a hunter. Sorry to ramble on, I sometimes get a little defensive, Hunting not a sport? no, probably not but to a true hunter it's part of a lifestyle.
Chuck:)

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

I personally hunt for meat. I love venison. I also have been known to pop a squirrel or two. (makes damn good stew) As stated above I think a few people need to visit the slaughter house before they define inhumane. As for the asonine remark about hunting with a knife. I find that would be a long and miserable death being cut to death. A bullet to the heart is much quicker and I'm sure much less painful than bleeding out over the course of several minutes or hours. As for bow hunting. not a real fan of that either because many animals end up running off in the brush never to be seen again with an arrow hanging out of them. I'm not saying a rifle is a guaranteed kill but personally I think one stands a better chance with a rifle than a bow. Oh BTW I don't keep racks or skins just meat. I prefer young spikes because the meat tends to be more tender. A 8-10 point buck is usually older and the meat is more tough and stringy. That's just my opinion though.
Omega (wishes ya'll happy knife hunting :rolleyes: :eek: )

[Pointerman]

Amen Chuck! Well said.

[Pointerman]

I'm an upland game guy myself (pheasant and quail primarily). Love hunting behind my English Pointer with a nice side by side. The tradition behind this sport is wonderful and the game is tasty.

[XTRM22]

Originally posted by WaterBox
Fu#$@n Ass Hole's that kill or Abuse Animal's. I wish the Lion would have won...
I cheer four the Bull's at a rodeo...:D
Yup, those are the comments I'm defending my self from. I can look down the sights and squeeze the trigger on a clean kill shot with very little remorse, conversely I can't stand to see any animal in pain.
Chuck

[BUSTI]

How many of you fish? when you go to the river and quitely on the shore you see a grandpa and his 8 year old grandson baiting their hooks and preparing to fish for some cat fish....do you say to your self 'look at that ol mutha focker and his asshole lil fuching kid they are hunting cat fish and preparing to kill them!!!'
Of course you don't! Most of you look at the old man and say ya I remember when my dad or Granpa took me fishing and you look at it with fond rememberance of your fishing days with dad and provbably grin. How many of you big game fish? Or for those of you that have had such a viseral reation to the lion video...do you have an equally as disturbing reaction when you walk into the Bluewater Grill in Newport Beach to order your favorite plate of Lobster or Sea Bass and there on the wall is a beautiful Blue marlin stuffed on the wall?
Be honest! You don't say shit! If the killing of animals disturb you so much why don't you walk up to the manager of the fish resturant and tell him he is ****ing ass hole for having the stuffed marlin on his wall?..after all it was just killed for sport! You don't because you have decided that the killing of fish is some how morally ok yet the killing of fury animals is morally repugnant. you have made a decision that some death to animals is ok yet some is not. You are hypocratical in your thinking. why is it ok for you to have made this kind of judgement over fish but not ok for some hunters to make a similiar judgement for themselves over big game? And lets be honest with all of the fishing tackle and modern technologies in fishing it is really shooting fish in a barrel.
Befor I continue I would like somebody to offer a rational explanation to my questions because what I have just described about fishing applies to the vast majorty of the non-hunting public.

[Pointerman]

Go Busti!

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Pointerman
I'm an upland game guy myself (pheasant and quail primarily). Love hunting behind my English Pointer with a nice side by side. The tradition behind this sport is wonderful and the game is tasty. What kind of Side By Side do you shoot?
I have a Holland&Holland Royal but seldom hunt with it. But I love nice doubles. :)

[Pointerman]

Nice scatter gun.
My favorite double is my Siace. It's an Italian SxS with exposed hammers. I bought it about two years ago new. Very pretty gun and it fits so nicely that I rarely miss with it. Everything else I own is much less expensive or was handed down by my Dad or Grandpa.

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

Originally posted by BUSTI
How many of you fish? when you go to the river and quitely on the shore you see a grandpa and his 8 year old grandson baiting their hooks and preparing to fish for some cat fish....do you say to your self 'look at that ol mutha focker and his asshole lil fuching kid they are hunting cat fish and preparing to kill them!!!'
Of course you don't! Most of you look at the old man and say ya I remember when my dad or Granpa took me fishing and you look at it with fond rememberance of your fishing days with dad and provbably grin. How many of you big game fish? Or for those of you that have had such a viseral reation to the lion video...do you have an equally as disturbing reaction when you walk into the Bluewater Grill in Newport Beach to order your favorite plate of Lobster or Sea Bass and there on the wall is a beautiful Blue marlin stuffed on the wall?
Be honest! You don't say shit! If the killing of animals disturb you so much why don't you walk up to the manager of the fish resturant and tell him he is ****ing ass hole for having the stuffed marlin on his wall?..after all it was just killed for sport! You don't because you have decided that the killing of fish is some how morally ok yet the killing of fury animals is morally repugnant. you have made a decision that some death to animals is ok yet some is not. You are hypocratical in your thinking. why is it ok for you to have made this kind of judgement over fish but not ok for some hunters to make a similiar judgement for themselves over big game? And lets be honest with all of the fishing tackle and modern technologies in fishing it is really shooting fish in a barrel.
Befor I continue I would like somebody to offer a rational explanation to my questions because what I have just described about fishing applies to the vast majorty of the non-hunting public. I think fishing with the hook and bait is unfair!!!:rolleyes: I think they should use knives or their bare hands.:rolleyes: ;) :D
Omega (totally with BUSTI on this one!!!)

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Pointerman
Nice scatter gun.
My favorite double is my Siace. It's an Italian SxS with exposed hammers. I bought it about two years ago new. Very pretty gun and it fits so nicely that I rarely miss with it. Everything else I own is much less expensive or was handed down by my Dad or Grandpa. I hunt with an old 870 or my Citori. I just shoot clay pigeons and fondle my nice doubles. :D

[XTRM22]

LOL, I can't help myself since this crosses into another of my opinions. Pro Bass fishing? Hook em, fight em, land em, and release em. Damn if you're not gonna eat em why torment em?!!
I live by two mottos
"Vegitarian is an old indian word meaning lousy hunter"
and
"There's always room for wildlife......Some of us prefer it next to the mashed potatoes"
Chuck :p

[Pointerman]

LOL

[mbrown2]

Originally posted by XTRM22
"Vegitarian is an old indian word meaning lousy hunter"
and
"There's always room for wildlife......Some of us prefer it next to the mashed potatoes"
Chuck :p
LMAO:D

[BUSTI]

How many of you fish? when you go to the river and quitely on the shore you see a grandpa and his 8 year old grandson baiting their hooks and preparing to fish for some cat fish....do you say to your self 'look at that ol mutha focker and his asshole lil fuching kid they are hunting cat fish and preparing to kill them!!!'
Of course you don't! Most of you look at the old man and say ya I remember when my dad or Granpa took me fishing and you look at it with fond rememberance of your fishing days with dad and provbably grin. How many of you big game fish? Or for those of you that have had such a viseral reation to the lion video...do you have an equally as disturbing reaction when you walk into the Bluewater Grill in Newport Beach to order your favorite plate of Lobster or Sea Bass and there on the wall is a beautiful Blue marlin stuffed on the wall?
Be honest! You don't say shit! If the killing of animals disturb you so much why don't you walk up to the manager of the fish resturant and tell him he is ****ing ass hole for having the stuffed marlin on his wall?..after all it was just killed for sport! You don't because you have decided that the killing of fish is some how morally ok yet the killing of fury animals is morally repugnant. you have made a decision that some death to animals is ok yet some is not. You are hypocratical in your thinking. why is it ok for you to have made this kind of judgement over fish but not ok for some hunters to make a similiar judgement for themselves over big game? And lets be honest with all of the fishing tackle and modern technologies in fishing it is really shooting fish in a barrel.
Befor I continue I would like somebody to offer a rational explanation to my questions because what I have just described about fishing applies to the vast majorty of the non-hunting public.

[Sleek-Jet]

Originally posted by miller19j
I hunt with an old 870 or my Citori. I just shoot clay pigeons and fondle my nice doubles. :D
Is that a field Clitori or a sporting model.
I need to pick up a double gun and am curiouse how you like it.

[Pointerman]

Originally posted by BUSTI
How many of you fish? when you go to the river and quitely on the shore you see a grandpa and his 8 year old grandson baiting their hooks and preparing to fish for some cat fish....do you say to your self 'look at that ol mutha focker and his asshole lil fuching kid they are hunting cat fish and preparing to kill them!!!'
Of course you don't! Most of you look at the old man and say ya I remember when my dad or Granpa took me fishing and you look at it with fond rememberance of your fishing days with dad and provbably grin. How many of you big game fish? Or for those of you that have had such a viseral reation to the lion video...do you have an equally as disturbing reaction when you walk into the Bluewater Grill in Newport Beach to order your favorite plate of Lobster or Sea Bass and there on the wall is a beautiful Blue marlin stuffed on the wall?
Be honest! You don't say shit! If the killing of animals disturb you so much why don't you walk up to the manager of the fish resturant and tell him he is ****ing ass hole for having the stuffed marlin on his wall?..after all it was just killed for sport! You don't because you have decided that the killing of fish is some how morally ok yet the killing of fury animals is morally repugnant. you have made a decision that some death to animals is ok yet some is not. You are hypocratical in your thinking. why is it ok for you to have made this kind of judgement over fish but not ok for some hunters to make a similiar judgement for themselves over big game? And lets be honest with all of the fishing tackle and modern technologies in fishing it is really shooting fish in a barrel.
Befor I continue I would like somebody to offer a rational explanation to my questions because what I have just described about fishing applies to the vast majorty of the non-hunting public.
Is there an echo in here?

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Sleek-Jet
Is that a field Clitori or a sporting model.
I need to pick up a double gun and am curiouse how you like it. http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/147citorism-med.jpg
It is actually a trap gun but I have gotten use to shooting and shoot it very well. I pretty much use it for doves, it can get a little heavy to carry for upland birds like quail. I have shot the standard field grade model with the 28 inch barrel and I really like it I would recommend that one for all around field use.

[Havasu47]

Originally posted by miller19j
Clearly you have never been hunting :rolleyes:
Oh that's really well spoken, rolling your eyes at me too. If you have something to say to channge the minds of all the people on this thread that disagree with hunting, lets hear it.
You're right, I've never been hunting. I make that choice because I don't believe killing an animal while it eats, drinks, or whatever is certainly no sport. Especially one that will never, and never was intended, to be used to feed anyone.
If you think 3 or 4 guys with high powered rifles shooting at a lion is sport, then would you, in a pen with 3 or 4 lions also be sporting?

[Havasu Cig]

You can't compare the killing of a fish to that of a lion. First ,one is a mammal and one is not. I personally don't classify them in the same category. If you want to use that rational, I guess spraying some ants on your porch would also be the same.:rolleyes:
I am not anti hunting. I used to hunt when I was younger, but just got to the point where I did not enjoy killing animals. If you do hunt, I think you should eat what you kill. I also believe Deer stands are a bullshit way to hunt.
After coming back from the first Gulf War I lost the desire to hunt as well. I really don't know why, but it changed things. I did not even go shooting for fun for several years after that. I have since, but it did change things for a while. Some permanently.
If you compare the hunting that most of you have talked about I think you will agree it does not compare to these big game hunts in Africa where the animal is caged prior to the hunt. We do not know for sure if this was the case in the video, but it is a well known fact that these places exist.
If the lion was a hazzard, and posed an immediate danger to people, I would agree that the killing was justified. That does not appear to be the case in the video though. I had to kill a dog that was attacking me a few years ago, and although I still feel bad about it, It was my only choice.
Just my.02

[Havasu47]

Just to clear things up a little on my stand. I agree with Havasu Cig. If you hunt with the intention of putting meat on your table, fine.
Lions don't fit into this category.

[Sleek-Jet]

Originally posted by Havasu Cig
You can't compare the killing of a fish to that of a lion. First ,one is a mammal and one is not. I personally don't classify them in the same category. If you want to use that rational, I guess spraying some ants on your porch would also be the same.:rolleyes:
I am not anti hunting. I used to hunt when I was younger, but just got to the point where I did not enjoy killing animals. If you do hunt, I think you should eat what you kill. I also believe Deer stands are a bullshit way to hunt.
After coming back from the first Gulf War I lost the desire to hunt as well. I really don't know why, but it changed things. I did not even go shooting for fun for several years after that. I have since, but it did change things for a while. Some permanently.
If you compare the hunting that most of you have talked about I think you will agree it does not compare to these big game hunts in Africa where the animal is caged prior to the hunt. We do not know for sure if this was the case in the video, but it is a well known fact that these places exist.
If the lion was a hazzard, and posed an immediate danger to people, I would agree that the killing was justified. That does not appear to be the case in the video though. I had to kill a dog that was attacking me a few years ago, and although I still feel bad about it, It was my only choice.
Just my.02
I've known several people that have gone on African hunts, and there were no caged animals. The gov't provide/sells the ranchers tags that they sell to the hunters. There are hunting seasons just like over here. It is an important part of the economy in some places. An animal cost "X" amount of dollars to hunt. The big cats usually the most.
The hunts are guided, and the guides cary very large guns to protect themselves from predetors if needed.
African hunts are usually that, the animals are stalked and taken only when the hunters feels he has clean shot.

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Havasu47
Oh that's really well spoken, rolling your eyes at me too. If you have something to say to channge the minds of all the people on this thread that disagree with hunting, lets hear it.
You're right, I've never been hunting. I make that choice because I don't believe killing an animal while it eats, drinks, or whatever is certainly no sport. Especially one that will never, and never was intended, to be used to feed anyone.
If you think 3 or 4 guys with high powered rifles shooting at a lion is sport, then would you, in a pen with 3 or 4 lions also be sporting? Your comment was that shooting with a scoped rifle is not a challenge. With a comment like that it proves that you clearly have never hunted before.
I completely disagree with your opinion. I have shot deer on the glens of Scotland with a scoped rifle and it is extremely difficult. To stalk within 100 yards of a heard of dear and get into a shooting position without them seeing you and spooking is extremely difficult. It usually consists of crawling on your hands and knees for several hours just to get into position to see the heard. Then you need to select an appropriate animal and maneuver into a position that will allow you to safely shoot that animal. It usually takes a whole day. The point is shooting with a scoped rifle can be very challenging.
As far a using a rifle. It is the most humane way to hunt period! A bow and arrow can be cruel in even the best hands. The animal usually bleeds to death as the arrow slowly rips up its internal organs. Not my type of hunting.
I have no problem with people that disagree with hunting. This is a free country and everyone is entitled their opinion. But you should get a little more educated on the subject before you form an opinion.

[Havasu Cig]

Originally posted by Sleek-Jet
I've known several people that have gone on African hunts, and there were no caged animals. The gov't provide/sells the ranchers tags that they sell to the hunters. There are hunting seasons just like over here. It is an important part of the economy in some places. An animal cost "X" amount of dollars to hunt. The big cats usually the most.
The hunts are guided, and the guides cary very large guns to protect themselves from predetors if needed.
African hunts are usually that, the animals are stalked and taken only when the hunters feels he has clean shot.
I am not doubting that there are hunters that track the game in Africa, but you can't say that the staged hunts with caged animals don't happen. I have seen videos of it, along with investigations that have uncovered these operations. It is sick!!!
I still don't agree with shooting Lions for sport. I doubt these hunters you know ate the meat.:rolleyes:
I guess the people that kill the Gorrillas in Amazon are ok also??? Some animals just should not be hunted IMO.

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Havasu Cig
I am not doubting that there are hunters that track the game in Africa, but you can't say that the staged hunts with caged animals don't happen. I have seen videos of it, along with investigations that have uncovered these operations. It is sick!!!
I think that we all agree on that. I know that I would not shoot something in a pen.

[Sleek-Jet]

Originally posted by Havasu Cig
I guess the people that kill the Gorrillas in Amazon are ok also??? Some animals just should not be hunted IMO.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. :rolleyes:
Look, I don't condone shooting caged animals, or ones that are protected/endangered, or poaching for that matter.
I have not taken shots because I felt that it was better to let the animal live, then just fill my tag.
The fact is that you can legally hunt and shoot lions in certain parts of the world. If a person wants, they can come here to Colorado and hunt a Mountain Lion. Hunting is a tool for controlling populations and an economic source for many people.
Hey, if you don't like hunting fine, I don't suffer the illusion that I'm going to change your opinion. You have your reasons, I have mine.
Just an FYI (and I'm not trying to be a smart-ass) but gorillas are found in the Congo, not the Amazon.

[Havasu47]

Originally posted by miller19j
I have no problem with people that disagree with hunting. This is a free country and everyone is entitled their opinion. But you should get a little more educated on the subject before you form an opinion.
As I said, I also have no problem with people that hunt and eat the meat. It certainly is a free country, opinions and all.
What would you like me to get more educated on? My opinion? I am aware of the crawling, etc. But I think if you look back it was the shooting of a lion I had a problem with. We obviously have a difference of opinion on what is challenging. You think shooting with a scoped rifle is challenging. It certainly takes a level of talent to hit your target. But challenging?
Please remember, I have a problem with the shooting of a LION, NOT hunting with the intention of putting meat on the table.
BTW, I had a 19 Miller jet 12 or 13 years ago. Nice boat.

[miller19j]

Originally posted by Havasu47
As I said, I also have no problem with people that hunt and eat the meat. It certainly is a free country, opinions and all.
What would you like me to get more educated on? My opinion? I am aware of the crawling, etc. But I think if you look back it was the shooting of a lion I had a problem with. We obviously have a difference of opinion on what is challenging. You think shooting with a scoped rifle is challenging. It certainly takes a level of talent to hit your target. But challenging?
Please remember, I have a problem with the shooting of a LION, NOT hunting with the intention of putting meat on the table.
BTW, I had a 19 Miller jet 12 or 13 years ago. Nice boat. I think at this point everyone is misinterpreting what everyone else has said up until now in this thread.
My problem was with your comment on hunting with a scoped rifle not being challenging. The point that I was trying to make was that the challenge was getting to the point where you could use the rifle. I am a pretty good shot and rarely miss once I get something in my sights (so in that respect I guess I agree with you). But a lot of times I never get to that point because the animal has outsmarted me before I get within an appropriate range.
As far as Lions go. I personally would not go out hunting Lion and I certainly would never shoot one in a pen. But I do believe that there are reasons and circumstances when they should be hunted. One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of lion hunting is done to keep up with a wildlife management plan. They try to keep all of the animals in balance and they need to regulate predators as well as meat bearing game.
Everything I hunt with the exception of a few things I eat. I do not eat the meat from the deer I shoot in Scotland because the estates sell the meat to butcher shops to support the estates Gamekeeper. But the meat does get eaten it can be found in the local market right next to beef in the meat section.
Finally I am glad to see that you like Millers because that is the most important thing of all. :D
Believe it or not I used to be against hunting before I tried it. Now I am an avid hunter. Don’t get the wrong idea I have no problem with your opinion. I just think that in most cases people should learn a little more about hunting before they form an opinion on it.

[BUSTI]

Cig,
You still did not answer my question ....you just proclaimed that its your personal opinion that its ok to kill nonmamals. But in your opinion it is not to ok to kill fury mamals. when you make moral judgements you must have a standard..whats yours? If its fury mamal its off limits? Why because mamals are smarter? Oh really? I garuanty you and optopus can problem solve at an incredibly higher rate than any lion...if you doubt me ask any biologist. Yet by your explanation an octopus is not a fury mamal..its an invertabrate..I guess its ok to kill then according to what your saying that it is ok to kill fish but not mamal, right?
Killing is killing! You also said well what about ants in the backyard? Yeah what about ants or bugs or even reptiles? Look you have made a personal decision based on what animals look like ,that one is ok to kill and one is not. Why won't you extend the same freedom to some other guy who believes as I do, that all animals are the dominion of man.
I beleive that we should not willfully cause an animal pain or death for no reason. But I do believe that killing for sport is a morally acceptable practice. Do you weep with such repugnantcy when a killer whale plays with a half dead seal throwing it around the water before it eats it? Some times killer whales don't even eat all the seals they hunt..they just hunt them for sport or as training for their young. And don't tell me its ok for animals to kill each other because its just nature. Well what the fuch do you call man? An unnatural inhabitant of this world?
We are a natural part of this world. It is our world . Yes the globe is inhabited by other creatures but they are all subserviant to man. They belong to man. We are the worlds only species ever on this planet to make our living experience better or worse. We can to large degree control our environment. Not only for us but for those species around us.
It is encumbent on man to treat all animals as hunanely as possible yet killing for sport is deemed by evry society to have ever inhabited the globe to be morally acceptable...its called freedom. Why should you have the freedom to deem killing in the name of food acceptable yet killing big game isn't. Go eat a vegie burger the vegan would say...you animal killer.
Although the lion video was graphic do you find it repugnant when that very same lion kills a small deer just because it can. And dont think in the wild animals only kill when they are hungry. If you believe that go for a walk around kodiac grizzelies and see what happens to you. You will die and they may or not eat you...but they will kill you.
Or better yet just hop the fence in mexico where they raise big bas bulls and walk through a pasture 100's of yards from a 1200 pound bull...you arem't a threat to him and see what happens ...he does want to kill you and its just his nature...but you he will kill you. Actually put a 3 year old totaller in with the bull the bull won't feel threatened but he will kill the baby..because he can its his nature.
Well many of enjoy hunting it is in our nature. Hunters do more to protect the environment and the other species in this world than non hunters do. Serious hunters love and appreciate the animals we hunt..it is the spirit of the wild and respect for nature that makes the lion share of hunters in this world better care takers of the planet than the nonhunters. Unlike you I don't think that non hunters are assholes just nonhunters with different views.
But never think that because you don't hunt you treat animals better than I do...you don't Yet i will extend to you your right to not hunt with out acting as if I am morally better than you...why won't you do the same for me?

[1stepcloser]

My asinine remark about knives was obviously not diected to you OBJ, as you are clearly one who takes no pleasure in the killing of an animal, rather to put meat in the freezer.
I applaud you.
I simply stated my opinion regarding the "sport" in hunting.
A challenge, as Miller stated? sure....there is indeed challenge in hunting.
I dont believe theres too much sport in it.
At least not by the definition of sport that I have grown up with. Where is the competition?
Again, my reference to using a knife was to illustrate that, again, in my opinion, that would be a little more competitive, wouldnt you say?
I have no problem with anyone who hunts, nor with whatever they use to kill.
I simply disagree with those that refer to hunting as a "sport".
And, once more....with the definition of "sport" that I grew up with.
Happy Hunting!:)

[unleashed]

Like I said before Im not against hunting for certain reasons(Game management as you guys have stated). But for me I guess I just couldnt stomach it. I remember the adrenaline rush when hunting with my inlaw(Im sure thats why alot of hunters hunt) but that soon turned to a sick feeling after seeing such a magnificent animal laying dead(A huge deer by the way in montana) in such a beautiful setting. Something just didnt sit well with me. It became obvious that there was a sense of pride and pleasure my father in law and freinds got from hunting. I soon realized Im just a different type of person when it comes to this subject so I kept my mouth shut and just went along with the whole experience. Oh and the reasons we have cows, chickens, fish it so we as humans dont have to go out and hunt. Right or Wrong its for the feeding of the mass populous. All this talking is getting me hungry I think I'll have to grill up a fat steak right now! Good Hunting! ;)
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) :devil:

[BUSTI]

Over the years primarily as a young man, through all of my walking and hiking while on the hunt...as well as all the hours on the water fishing I have come to appreciate the wild. As a hunter I have a profound appreciateion for nature and all that lives in it. i give regularly to groups that appreciate the wild and I realize that as a man i have a part as we all do to be care takers of this world and to use it responsibility.
with out being a hunter I can tell you I would never have developed such an appreciation for the world and all that is in it..including man kind

[1stepcloser]

Originally posted by BUSTI
You are hypocratical in your thinking. why is it ok for you to have made this kind of judgement over fish but not ok for some hunters to make a similiar judgement for themselves over big game?
Befor I continue I would like somebody to offer a rational explanation to my questions because what I have just described about fishing applies to the vast majorty of the non-hunting public.
I dont fish, either.:D Hypocrisy definately has it's boundaries though, particualrly here.
How do you feel about the killing of a human?

[XTRM22]

Originally posted by 1stepcloser
I dont fish, either.:D Hypocrisy definately has it's boundaries though, particualrly here.
"It would apear my hypocracy knows no bounds", I love that line.
Busti, you were losin me on the fishing post, but the last one about how hunting kinda introduced you to nature is dead on.
I think we all agree on the majority of these points, and on the rest we can agree to disagree.
Hey Unleashed you wanna throw one of those steaks on for me, medium rare would be nice.
Chuck ;)

[flat broke]

Originally posted by BUSTI
Cig,
You still did not answer my question ....you just proclaimed that its your personal opinion that its ok to kill nonmamals. But in your opinion it is not to ok to kill fury mamals. when you make moral judgements you must have a standard..whats yours? If its fury mamal its off limits? Why because mamals are smarter? Oh really? I garuanty you and optopus can problem solve at an incredibly higher rate than any lion...if you doubt me ask any biologist. Yet by your explanation an octopus is not a fury mamal..its an invertabrate..I guess its ok to kill then according to what your saying that it is ok to kill fish but not mamal, right?
Killing is killing! You also said well what about ants in the backyard? Yeah what about ants or bugs or even reptiles? Look you have made a personal decision based on what animals look like ,that one is ok to kill and one is not. Why won't you extend the same freedom to some other guy who believes as I do, that all animals are the dominion of man.
I beleive that we should not willfully cause an animal pain or death for no reason. But I do believe that killing for sport is a morally acceptable practice. Do you weep with such repugnantcy when a killer whale plays with a half dead seal throwing it around the water before it eats it? Some times killer whales don't even eat all the seals they hunt..they just hunt them for sport or as training for their young. And don't tell me its ok for animals to kill each other because its just nature. Well what the fuch do you call man? An unnatural inhabitant of this world?
We are a natural part of this world. It is our world . Yes the globe is inhabited by other creatures but they are all subserviant to man. They belong to man. We are the worlds only species ever on this planet to make our living experience better or worse. We can to large degree control our environment. Not only for us but for those species around us.
It is encumbent on man to treat all animals as hunanely as possible yet killing for sport is deemed by evry society to have ever inhabited the globe to be morally acceptable...its called freedom. Why should you have the freedom to deem killing in the name of food acceptable yet killing big game isn't. Go eat a vegie burger the vegan would say...you animal killer.
Although the lion video was graphic do you find it repugnant when that very same lion kills a small deer just because it can. And dont think in the wild animals only kill when they are hungry. If you believe that go for a walk around kodiac grizzelies and see what happens to you. You will die and they may or not eat you...but they will kill you.
Or better yet just hop the fence in mexico where they raise big bas bulls and walk through a pasture 100's of yards from a 1200 pound bull...you arem't a threat to him and see what happens ...he does want to kill you and its just his nature...but you he will kill you. Actually put a 3 year old totaller in with the bull the bull won't feel threatened but he will kill the baby..because he can its his nature.
Well many of enjoy hunting it is in our nature. Hunters do more to protect the environment and the other species in this world than non hunters do. Serious hunters love and appreciate the animals we hunt..it is the spirit of the wild and respect for nature that makes the lion share of hunters in this world better care takers of the planet than the nonhunters. Unlike you I don't think that non hunters are assholes just nonhunters with different views.
But never think that because you don't hunt you treat animals better than I do...you don't Yet i will extend to you your right to not hunt with out acting as if I am morally better than you...why won't you do the same for me?
Sorry holmes, you're entitled to your opinion, but to claim all animals as the dominion of man is utter bullshit and the megalomaniac mentality behind the depletion of our wild lands and natural resources. "Man is superior and thus can do as it wishes". I'm no Sierra Club granola muncher, but if man were so f'n superior and truly held dominion over all, then he would have learned to control his birthrate in order to establish homeostasis with his environment. There would certainly be more water for boating, more food for eating, and more animals to hunt for food. Mankind is a scourge upon this planet. No other species on this planet can lay claim to more destruction and ruin than man kind.
If your logic is sound and animals are the dominion of man due to our superiority and ability to kill them, then it stands to reason that there are men among men who should claim superiority over the lesser men and hunt them for sport. I don't see anyone supporting this type of action when instances or genocide are let loose on the world. Further more, the crux of your argument would also facilitate the argument that there are no victims of crime, only superior and subordinate parties. I don't think you'd want to hang your hat on that premise.
Once again, I'm not against hunting/killing for sustenance or self defense, but I am opposed to killing animals purely for sport. If you want to kill for sport, Havasu Cig mentioned a great outlet for you; sign up for the infantry and go hunt and be hunted. A man with a rifle against a deer can't possibly be sport as man is expected to win since he has dominion over all animals... You said it yourself.
Chris

[quiet riot]

Too bad I work nights and had to miss all the excitement on this.:D By the way, I've hunted and fished all my life, real hunting and not the game preserve bs for trophy crap, tree stand in the zoo, that you see in the video or on tv. I don't need to proliferate because several people on here have stated what real hunting is like (good job busti and the like!)
I'll just add that a good hunt doesn't have to include getting a 4-point (or eight point for the people that can't add:D ) animal. And for the people that can't appreciate that, its cool, just don't infringe on the freedoms of the other people who can appreciate it.
And I have gotten some big racks (the kind on the animals head too :D ) and proud of the effort that went into getting them and the meat I got from them too.
And for everyone that is concerned about the animals welfare, have you ever gone out to feed the animals on the onset of a severe winter when they're going to starve to prevent a massive mortallity rate that lasts for several years like many hunters, ranchers, farmers, loggers, etc? Or have you thought about your house or shopping mall that is built on the land previously used by these animals? Or the toilet paper that you wipe your ass with that had the tree cut down where the owl used to live? If not and you haven't taken any action on that stuff besides piping your mouth off and using a big wad of paper on your ass and getting that extra square ft in your home, then don't start on other people when you should look in the mirror.
later,
Mr. hunter, logger, farmer, rancher, and now in the hi-tech industry wishing I still lived in the woods that likes listening to the ignorant on the subject.
jd
PS, how do you think you get the food on your table, and what about the massive killing of all the vegetables? Or spending millions to save Keiko the whale while kids starve in this world? Oh nevermind.:rolleyes:

[Dr. Eagle]

All I want to know is who is hunting whom??????:eek: :confused: :eek: :confused: :eek:

[Havasu Cig]

Originally posted by Sleek-Jet
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. :rolleyes:
Look, I don't condone shooting caged animals, or ones that are protected/endangered, or poaching for that matter.
I have not taken shots because I felt that it was better to let the animal live, then just fill my tag.
The fact is that you can legally hunt and shoot lions in certain parts of the world. If a person wants, they can come here to Colorado and hunt a Mountain Lion. Hunting is a tool for controlling populations and an economic source for many people.
Hey, if you don't like hunting fine, I don't suffer the illusion that I'm going to change your opinion. You have your reasons, I have mine.
Just an FYI (and I'm not trying to be a smart-ass) but gorillas are found in the Congo, not the Amazon.
You are right about the Congo, I thought about that last night after I posted.
My point is that to some killing a Gorilla would be ok. Where do you draw the line??
Again I am not against hunting, I just don't do it anymore.

[THOR]

I used to hunt huge racks when I was single. :D

[Havasu Cig]

Originally posted by BUSTI
Cig,
You still did not answer my question ....you just proclaimed that its your personal opinion that its ok to kill nonmamals. But in your opinion it is not to ok to kill fury mamals. when you make moral judgements you must have a standard..whats yours? If its fury mamal its off limits? Why because mamals are smarter? Oh really? I garuanty you and optopus can problem solve at an incredibly higher rate than any lion...if you doubt me ask any biologist. Yet by your explanation an octopus is not a fury mamal..its an invertabrate..I guess its ok to kill then according to what your saying that it is ok to kill fish but not mamal, right?
Killing is killing! You also said well what about ants in the backyard? Yeah what about ants or bugs or even reptiles? Look you have made a personal decision based on what animals look like ,that one is ok to kill and one is not. Why won't you extend the same freedom to some other guy who believes as I do, that all animals are the dominion of man.
I beleive that we should not willfully cause an animal pain or death for no reason. But I do believe that killing for sport is a morally acceptable practice. Do you weep with such repugnantcy when a killer whale plays with a half dead seal throwing it around the water before it eats it? Some times killer whales don't even eat all the seals they hunt..they just hunt them for sport or as training for their young. And don't tell me its ok for animals to kill each other because its just nature. Well what the fuch do you call man? An unnatural inhabitant of this world?
We are a natural part of this world. It is our world . Yes the globe is inhabited by other creatures but they are all subserviant to man. They belong to man. We are the worlds only species ever on this planet to make our living experience better or worse. We can to large degree control our environment. Not only for us but for those species around us.
It is encumbent on man to treat all animals as hunanely as possible yet killing for sport is deemed by evry society to have ever inhabited the globe to be morally acceptable...its called freedom. Why should you have the freedom to deem killing in the name of food acceptable yet killing big game isn't. Go eat a vegie burger the vegan would say...you animal killer.
Although the lion video was graphic do you find it repugnant when that very same lion kills a small deer just because it can. And dont think in the wild animals only kill when they are hungry. If you believe that go for a walk around kodiac grizzelies and see what happens to you. You will die and they may or not eat you...but they will kill you.
Or better yet just hop the fence in mexico where they raise big bas bulls and walk through a pasture 100's of yards from a 1200 pound bull...you arem't a threat to him and see what happens ...he does want to kill you and its just his nature...but you he will kill you. Actually put a 3 year old totaller in with the bull the bull won't feel threatened but he will kill the baby..because he can its his nature.
Well many of enjoy hunting it is in our nature. Hunters do more to protect the environment and the other species in this world than non hunters do. Serious hunters love and appreciate the animals we hunt..it is the spirit of the wild and respect for nature that makes the lion share of hunters in this world better care takers of the planet than the nonhunters. Unlike you I don't think that non hunters are assholes just nonhunters with different views.
But never think that because you don't hunt you treat animals better than I do...you don't Yet i will extend to you your right to not hunt with out acting as if I am morally better than you...why won't you do the same for me?
Again, I never said Hunters are "assholes", I have hunted in the past, I just don't do it anymore. If you want to hunt that is your right. I never made a moral judgment against you either. I don't even know you. This started out as a debate about the video of the Lion being killed, and now you are making it personal. I never said that I treated animals better than you either, yet if you ask the people that know me on this board you will find my pets are a part of my family.
I spent 10k trying to save one of my dogs a few years ago. Some people thought I was crazy, but he showed me loyalty for many years and he deserved the same from me. I also had to put a dog down recently that had been with me for 15 years. She died in my arms looking me in the eyes, it was the hardest thing I have ever done, but she was suffering so it was the best thing to do. I treat my animals very well, I hope you do the same like you have stated.
As far as animals killing other animals, most are done for food. If a killer whale is teaching an offspring how to hunt by killing a seal, then so be it. Man has the ability to reason, and make moral decisions unlike animals. You can not compare an animal hunting to survive, and a person shooting a lion in Africa for sport.
As far as what animals I think should not be hunted, well I guess that is a personal decision. I know an avid hunter, I used to Dove hunt with, that will not kill Coyotes. He said it reminds him to much of a dog. He lives in Arizona, and has many other friends that he hunts with, but does not go when they hunt for Coyotes. That is a personal decision he has made.
I do have a problem with animals that are caged, and then used as prey on a hunt. Where is the sport in that??? I also have a problem with animals that are killed purely for sport and not eaten. If an animal poses a threat to people, such as the Mountain Lion killed in O.C. last night, then that is definitely justified.
If killing animals is needed to control population growth because it is overall better for the species then so be it. But just killing for the sake of killing is wrong in my opinion. Most hunters do not fall into this category, but some do, and I have known a few of them over the years. I have known hunters that have taken the game they have killed to a dumpster in a commercial parking lot and dumped it inside. They simply get enjoyment out of killing the animal. I don't see the enjoyment in that.
Your beliefs that animals belong to man, which I assume stem from you religous beliefs, are your personal beliefs. I don't happen to belief that. What would your opinion be on pitting dogs for sport???
I have owned Pitbulls for many years now, and know the background of the breed, but can't understand how you could pit these animal against each other for sport. But if we use your beliefs I guess they belong to us and we can do what we want with them right??? Or maybe Dogs don't fall into that category, but then you would be drawing a line on what is ok to kill and what is not.
:rolleyes:

[Pointerman]

OK, I am willing to eliminate the word "sport" from my hunting vocabulary. Let's call it a "hobby" from now on. I hunt as a hobby. Got a problem with that?
Your hobby of boating does a lot more damage to wildlife than my hobby of shooting pheasant and quail does. You dump fossil fuels into the river, do frequent oil changes to prevent damage to your motor, you release pollution into the air, create noise pollution tearing around in your hot boat and who knows how many fish have been run over by you!
Folks need to be careful about going after other people's hobbies since most of the world doesn't own a boat either. What will you do when no one wants to defend your hobby? Freedom is too precious to take away because we are offended by a hobby that has existed for thousands of years.

[miller19j]

I think that one of the issues here is that for people that hunt; hunting becomes a way of life. I don’t think of it as a sport or hobby to me it’s a way of life. It sounds cliché but there is some thing natural about it. When hunting I feel at one with nature and I enjoy the experience immensely. I think it stems from our ancestry; when we needed to hunt for food. But whatever it is it touches us very deeply.
Believe it or not I am very much an animal lover. I have a great deal of respect for all animals. I just choose to use some of them for a food source. If need be I would go broke to keep my dogs healthy. Because I have taken the responsibility to care for them and they are members of the family to me.
HavasuCig,
I can understand you position. If I were subjected to going to war and having to see it first hand, then possibly I might give up hunting as well. I respect your opinion.

[Havasu Cig]

I think we are getting a little off topic here. The point of discussion started with the video of the Lion being killed. I don't think anyone has said you don't have the right to hunt. Some are simply expressing their views.
I am an NRA supporter, and have been for a long time. I may not agree with 100 % with all their views, but I want protection of my Second Amendment rights. I don't impose my views on NRA members that are hunters, just as I don't want them to say I can't own a high capacity magazine for my firearm.
I will defend your right to hunt, but I will still express my views when I see videos like the one that was posted.
We need to go back to talking about boats, this is getting to deep.:D

[Picklefork]

For those of you that don't hunt, close your eyes. For those of you that do, do you butcher your own kill or do you have someone special that does the job for you?

[Chase]

OK, this is one of those topics that nobody "wins"...everyone has thier own opinion, so be it. Personally I am a hunter who eats what I kill. I hunt upland game (pheasants, partridge, grouse etc) and I have to say that is a challenge. Especially for Pheasant if you don't have a dog to help out. I finally got a nice Whitetail Buck this fall, which as said earlier, I would like those who said this is not hunting, to join me some day. I have full respect for the animals and think they are beautiful.
I do not hunt for the pleasure of killing animals. Most of my shooting is with the Citori at the clay pigeons.
I am however against the hunting of the endangered animals such as the lion or Tiger.

[XTRM22]

Originally posted by Picklefork
For those of you that don't hunt, close your eyes. For those of you that do, do you butcher your own kill or do you have someone special that does the job for you?
I generally quarter and debone the meat, and have a friend with a butcher shop who finishes cutting the steaks, packages them and also grinds up meat for sausage. I have butchered and packaged the meat my self, but since I can get it done right and faily cheaply I don't mind paying.
I agree with HavasuCig (don't tell him though.:p ) we are a little off track here and I think everybody agrees on the obvious right and wrong of mistreating animals, but where the fine line gets drawn is up to the individual.
Chuck ;)

[Havasu Cig]

I thought you always agreed with me Chuck:D

[BUSTI]

All good points and I am at least happy to see that (most of us)we all agree to disagree. But when some body tells me what I have a right to believe and practice is bullshit then i do take offense to it and say your reaction is bullshit.
Why is it that what I believe has to be so publicly decried as bullshit. See i do believe that man has dominion over al other living creatures on this planet. Surprisingly I am sure to many of you, not because of any religious belief...but because of objective reasoning according to my belief that man has a soul and a level of self awareness that animals don't. human life is far more precious to me than animal life. Does that mean that animal is not precious to me? Absolutely not! I DO believe that all life is precious. But I believe that all animal life is a valuable renewable resource for man to use responsibly! Just like oil, trees for lumber, water and other minerals.
Once all men come to the realization that animals are for us to use responsibly as a valuable resource then you will see across the board a greater level of treatment of all animals. Look what a persons motivation regarding animals is of no importance to me..only a persons actions are important to me. i absolutely know that me and all of my friends that hunt and kill some animals for sport and yes at times for food...on average treat all animals better than the average Joe Public that would find the lion video objectional. As Pointerman said "how many of you spend your personal time and money on a consistent basis making the world better for animals like improving the environment or really caring for how other animals may be slaughtered by thier wild areas being destroyed for developement purposes?
If the rest of the world had a belief like man that all animal life should be regarded as a precious renewable resource to be managed humanely by man, then I am convinced the animal life on this planet would be better off than it is now. Despite the fact i approve of the killing of animals for both food and sport!
You see if as many of you have said " here I draw the line" then you open the door to the wackos, like PITA, to say that the buthering of 7 million chickens each year is tad amount to the holicaust of WW II. There can never be a moral arguement that animal life is identical to human life that makes any sense to me. A deer can never be equated to a human baby!
I raise beagles and in the last 10 years I have had 3 dozen of them. I love them as pets and i am very attached to them....but I can accept that One mans pet is another mans source of food some place else in the world! He has the right to eat dog if he wants or for that matter kill them for sport. His dogs are his to do what he wants to with them, just like the trees on his property is...animals are property!
Animals are not self aware can not make moral judgements. They are incapable of determining right from wrong. Hitler had a number of German Sheperads as did his hinchmen. At Berkdisgarten (sp?) in front of his dogs one his nazi butchers executed two traitors and their families as well as their german Shepards. Hitlers dogs saw the murders and began playing fetch and performing tricks for hitler for doggy treats while the dead bodies were dragged away. Do you think those dogs were just nazi dogs loyal to their fuher? Hell no animals are incapable of making moral distinctions. they dont know right from wrong.
They are not self aware. Do you think when your dog passes a mirror he looks in it and says to himself "man I sure am gaining weight, I wish master wouldn't feed me all those table scraps it is going to give me a much shorter life span!" Hell no they are not self aware!
Animals don't have rights! Only man does. Man does have a responsibilty to manage his environment TO the best he can giving compassion and humane treatment to all living things on this planet but animals do not have rights. They are not like humans! To suggest they are is immoral. It deminishes the value of human life AND IN MY OPINION THAT IS FING BULLSHIT!

[BUSTI]

All good points and I am at least happy to see that (most of us)we all agree to disagree. But when some body tells me what I have a right to believe and practice is bullshit then i do take offense to it and say your reaction is bullshit.
Why is it that what I believe has to be so publicly decried as bullshit. See i do believe that man has dominion over al other living creatures on this planet. Surprisingly I am sure to many of you, not because of any religious belief...but because of objective reasoning according to my belief that man has a soul and a level of self awareness that animals don't. human life is far more precious to me than animal life. Does that mean that animal is not precious to me? Absolutely not! I DO believe that all life is precious. But I believe that all animal life is a valuable renewable resource for man to use responsibly! Just like oil, trees for lumber, water and other minerals.
Once all men come to the realization that animals are for us to use responsibly as a valuable resource then you will see across the board a greater level of treatment of all animals. Look what a persons motivation regarding animals is of no importance to me..only a persons actions are important to me. i absolutely know that me and all of my friends that hunt and kill some animals for sport and yes at times for food...on average treat all animals better than the average Joe Public that would find the lion video objectional. As Pointerman said "how many of you spend your personal time and money on a consistent basis making the world better for animals like improving the environment or really caring for how other animals may be slaughtered by thier wild areas being destroyed for developement purposes?
If the rest of the world had a belief like man that all animal life should be regarded as a precious renewable resource to be managed humanely by man, then I am convinced the animal life on this planet would be better off than it is now. Despite the fact i approve of the killing of animals for both food and sport!
You see if as many of you have said " here I draw the line" then you open the door to the wackos, like PITA, to say that the buthering of 7 million chickens each year is tad amount to the holicaust of WW II. There can never be a moral arguement that animal life is identical to human life that makes any sense to me. A deer can never be equated to a human baby!
I raise beagles and in the last 10 years I have had 3 dozen of them. I love them as pets and i am very attached to them....but I can accept that One mans pet is another mans source of food some place else in the world! He has the right to eat dog if he wants or for that matter kill them for sport. His dogs are his to do what he wants to with them, just like the trees on his property is...animals are property!
Animals are not self aware can not make moral judgements. They are incapable of determining right from wrong. Hitler had a number of German Sheperads as did his hinchmen. At Berkdisgarten (sp?) in front of his dogs one his nazi butchers executed two traitors and their families as well as their german Shepards. Hitlers dogs saw the murders and began playing fetch and performing tricks for hitler for doggy treats while the dead bodies were dragged away. Do you think those dogs were just nazi dogs loyal to their fuher? Hell no animals are incapable of making moral distinctions. they dont know right from wrong.
They are not self aware. Do you think when your dog passes a mirror he looks in it and says to himself "man I sure am gaining weight, I wish master wouldn't feed me all those table scraps it is going to give me a much shorter life span!" Hell no they are not self aware!
Animals don't have rights! Only man does. Man does have a responsibilty to manage his environment TO the best he can giving compassion and humane treatment to all living things on this planet but animals do not have rights. They are not like humans! To suggest they are is immoral. It deminishes the value of human life AND IN MY OPINION THAT IS FING BULLSHIT!

[Havasu Cig]

Animals don't have rights??? I guess we better get rid of the laws that protect animals. :rolleyes:
You are extreme in your views IMO.

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

Originally posted by Picklefork
For those of you that don't hunt, close your eyes. For those of you that do, do you butcher your own kill or do you have someone special that does the job for you? I usually take the backstrap and make steaks out of the quarters (portaband works great) the rest is taken to the processer for sausage. My uncle bought a grinder this year and he intends to grind some up for use in Spaghetti etc. might be pretty damn good. I know ground turkey makes some good spaghetti. processing can get pretty expensive......
Omega

[BUSTI]

Great idea! I do support the elimination of arbitrary animal rights! Do you believe really that bogus animal rights laws are the reason that animals are treated kindly today? Do you think that in the 1800's that the vast majority of people in this country treated animals well because of fear that if they didn't animal rights laws would be passed if they didn't? Wrong!
People in this country treated animals as they should be as personal property to which they understood that they all had a profound appreciation for all animals and that their lives would be better if they treated animals well.
Thats why back in the old days you could be hung for stealing a mans horse just as easy as you would be hung as if you stole his gold! both were mans property and as such each man had a right to his own property. don't you get it? When something belongs to you and you consider it valuable you are more likely to take care of it! It stems from property rights!
Show me a socoety that needs laws specifically animal rights laws and i will show you a society that has a diminished appreciation for human life1 Compared to the socoety that truely values all animals as valuable personal property. Animal cruelty to large extent is a modern phenom. The romans didn't have PITA or animal rights laws! Neither did the Europeans! Animals do not have rights! Only in the last 50 years did you see a wholesale liberal idea like animal rights manifest it self into laws.

[flat broke]

Busti,
I agree that you have every bit the right to your beliefs that I do mine, and the fact that I called your beliefs bullshit was out of line as I would get pissed if you called my beliefs bullshit. Buuuuuut since you indicated that your beliefs are the result of objective reasoning, I will say that the conclusion of your premise is far from objective, and makes some blanket assumptions and exceptions that ultimately undermine your stance and illustrate that your beliefs are not based off objective reasoning, but your personal ideology. In the end, I guess my interpretation of your logic is extraneous to the conversation so it doesn't matter.
You have the right to hunt, I have the right to object to hunting for sport. Luckily we both have the right to keep and bear arms so that in the event that one day someone says I dont have the right to object, or you don't have the right to hunt; we can protect our respective rights.
Chris

[Havasu Cig]

Busti,
We had a guy here recently that got pissed off at his dog and stabbed it 13 times. The dog was not being aggressive, was not threatening anybody, but was attacked simply because his owner was a F@#king nut case.
The guy was arrested and sentenced to 6 months county time. I guess by your logic he did nothing wrong???

[Ducatista]

What a great thread....as a former hunter/killer and gun collector in my young days, to the person I am today, I can really see and agree with both sides of the issue. Geez and no name calling too! My compliments to all that have shared their views....nicely done, good reading. Hats off to ya quiet riot....

[Picklefork]

Well, I got to laughing so hard at RD in North Carolina, I thought we were having another EARTHQUAKE!!! My desk started to rumble, stuff spit out of the shelves above my desktop, all my Playboys, Hot Boats, my prized trophy and my little pocket pistol flew all over the office. Duck and cover! Duck and cover!
Now that I've pried myself out of the cubby of my desk and returned everything to it's proper place, I can't find my copy of "Atlas Shrugged". Busti? you got my copy? You sound like you've been reading Ayn Rand.
Anyway, it's all your fault RD for making me laugh. Send me the "Fountainhead" please, I'll read that.

[Picklefork]

RD?

[BUSTI]

Cig,
Great question! The answer, according to my logic, is...YES he did do something wrong! I find what he did morally repugnant! But the dog is his property. Remember I said iIbelieve that the regulation of animals falls into property rights. What were the circumstances of this butchering of the dog? Did he do it in a public park or on his front yard? If so he was certainly guilty of pbcene behavior, did he use a gun as well? did he indanger other people? Did he disturb the peace? Or did he butcher his dog in his basement where no body saw him? does he do this regularly raising dogs to just slaughter them for pleasure? Did he violate civil codes for animals and theor disposal that could other peoples property,neighborhood values?
Well then if he is regularly killing dogs then that points to a other problems that could be handled in a civil court. Albeit morally repugnant the killing of a dog that way he, by virture of the killing of the dog alone, does not belong in JAIL! Jail should be reserved for crimes against people!
Does it make sense to jail a man for killing his own dog yet the first time mugger gets probation? Animals are not people! Getting back to your question earlier well what about those of us that are smarter/sharper and or live better lives than people lower down the scale of life socialy, economically or educationally? That is obsurd! Havent you been paying attention to what i have been saying? i hold all life precious ESPECIALLY MAN KIND! YOU CANNOT EQUATE AN ANIMAL WITH PEOPLE AND ASSIGN THOSE ANIMALS THE SAME RIGHTS ASSOCIATED WITH PEOPLE. ONLY A THINKING MORAL HUMAN BEING WITH THE CAPACITY TO VALUE HIS OWN RIGHTS AND APPRECIATE THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS HAS THE RIGHT TO HIS OWN PROPERTY!
ANIMALS HAVE NO RIGHTS NOT EEN A RIGHT TO EXIST...ONLY IF A MAN SO VALUES THE ANIMALS LIFE. I will repeat that when all men return to a basic understanding that animals belong to us and should be treated as valuable personal property then and only then will treatment of animals improve. 5,000 years of history proves my point. as long as man believed that all animals were his to own as his own personal property animals had it better off in this world. As soon as the modern day liberal thinking that animals had rights like or equal to humans did you see wholesale slaughter and mistreatment of animals. Your beliefs when put into action that is that animals have rights did we then as a culture start to mistreat animals so badly. Rights implies intellence such as ownership, pursuit of happiness, property rights, voting rights ect, do you adviate these rights for animals? Of course you don't! You know they are animals.
Well cig i wish more people loved animals like you and me...and like i previously posted ones intentions or motivations isn't important to me..more importantly to me are peoples actions. And I can tell you most hunters on average eben those that hunt for sport..I have actually do more for animals on a daily basis than most of those that don't hunt!
Your are an honest man I like to think I am also..this has been fun.
Out,
Richard

[Chase]

Good answer BustI...........:)

[Havasu Cig]

If the dog was his property, and he destroyed his own property, how is this going to be handled in Civil Court?
Who is going to sue him in civil court if there is no victim?
So I guess as long as he disposes of the animal without violating any Health & Safety Codes, municipal codes ect... he can kill his dog, torture his dog, whatever he wants to do?
I can't agree with this logic.
you say that only people that commit crimes against persons should go to jail? What if someone was to steal your boat, car ect... that is a property crime, and not classified as a crime against a person. I guess this person should not go to jail either?
I definitely don't agree with you, but you have a right to your opinion.

[BUSTI]

Cig, you do agree with me you just don't know it! A thief goes to jail because he violated your property rights..not because he hurt your feelings or the boat was kidnapped against its own will. he goes to the slammer because the law realizes that when he steals your property he stills a portion of your life at least all the work, time , effort, amd money eg. some thing valuable of yours. that is what he goes to jail for. thievery is a personal crime.
When a man ties up a goat in his front yard and butchers it for all to see or sacrifices it for some cooky mystical purpose he first will arrested for disturbing the peace. second he will be in in jeopardy legally for destroying all of his neighbors property values with such a regular spectacle. and also he could depending on how he did it he could be arrested for endangering others from a health standpoint. But the goat it self should not have a greater right to live than my rights that have been violated my the goat owner. and I believe that the goat has no right to exist. The goat just happen to be a carbon life formthat is fury and cute. It is not a human...that is logical to me.. By the way what is your logic in this debate? Do you believ that animals have rights like humans and if so why?
And your dog killing example proves my point...obviously that guy didn't give a shit about animal protection laws. if you think that animal protection laws will make animals safer than explain to me duirng a time there werent animal rights laws why did Americans treat their animals better. and now there are animal rights laws on whole Americans routinely mistreat more animals than ever before?
I stand on my facts as a whole hunters do more for the preservation of wild life and the ethical treatment of animals than all the non hunters of this country combined!

[Havasu Cig]

First There are crimes that are classified as crimes against people such as as robbery, and property crimes such as burglary. They are classified differently. and crimes against people generally carry stiffer penalties. I think we are arguing over language on that point.
As far as my beliefs of animal rights Vs. persons rights, I do believe animals have rights. I don't think animals should be subjected to cruelty simply because they are not human. They feel pain like you and I, and don't think it is fair that someone would cause pain intentionally. I am not reffering to legal hunting where the purpose is to kill and consume. I think it should be done in a humane (sp) way though.
If someone were causing injury or worse to my dog, I would do whatever was needed to defend my dog. If that meant killing the person, I would do it without hesitating. Like I said before I consider my dogs as family. I think others on here feel the same, but many don't want to voice their opinion.
As far as people treating animals worse now than in the past, I don't know that to be the case. Point out some facts to me that prove this. I think society as a hole has declined as far as moral values are concerned. People commit acts that in past generations would not have been tolerated.
Lastly, I believe that hunters have the right to hunt. I don't believe domesticated animals such as dogs should fall into this category.

[Havasu Cig]

Hey RD, how do you feel? I know you are close to your dog, do you think it has any rights?
If someone were to harm your dog would you consider it to be equal to someone denting the door on your truck. Or do you consider your dog more than property?

[BUSTI]

Cig,
think society as a hole has declined as far as moral values are concerned. People commit acts that in past generations would not have been tolerated.
True thats my point! People act more poorly over all including their treatment of animals. As for you defending your animals of course you would I have defended my dogs and physically. But be careful..if you kill another human in the defense of your dog..you will go to jail and given the right circumstances you will be executed for it.
Because I believe animals are property does not imply that they should be mistreated..you are making that assertion that must be what I believe. Why can't you see that just because I believe animals are property and that we would all as a society be better off if we all considered them valuable personal property. we do already as a socoety believe that any way. We have just allowed this crazy notion that animals have rights similiar to people to confuse our legal system. We all believe they are our property and I can prove it.
You have mentioned as others on this debate "my dog"! When you go to get a lic for your dog the form says "dog owner"! When the dog you own bites somebody the DOG OWNER is at fault. Not the dog! there are dog adoption services not dog and owner mating services! We buy and sell dogs because we already recognize they are our personal property! We breed animals for our pleasure..ever been to a horse race? There is a horse owner who gets paid when his nag wins!!!!! and when the horse as no more commercial value he send it to the glue factory or puts a bullit in its head (get ready for this).........
BECAUSE THE FING HORSE IS HIS PROPERTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPT ANIMALS AS OUR PROPERTY ALREADY LETS JUST BE HONEST ABOUT.. YOU ALREADY ACCEPT OR YOU WOULD BE DECRYING THE CRIME OF SLAVERY OF EVERY HORSE BRED TO RACE AGAINST ITS WILL. After all we must be violating the horse's right to freedom. This notion of animal rights of yours is ludicrous..either they have rights or they are our property!
I am sorry using your logic every thourough bred farm owner should be prosecuted for mistreatment of animals ..but they aren't are they Cig...why because the vast majority of laws recognize animals as property. Valuable property is always( as a rule) cherished and protected. Quit making obsurd equations like asking RD if somebody kicking his car door is as the same as somebody kicking his dog. Well ok maybe with Dave its a legit question(just joking RiverDave)...but for the rest of us of course the DOGS WE OWN are more important to us than a car door. But some guys like the cars they own more THAN THE DOGS THEY OWN.
aNIMALS ARE PERSONAL PROPERTY AND YOU HAVE ADMITTED IT IN THIS DEBATE. that doesn't mean i agree that wanton cruelty to animals is right or acceptable!

[HOSS]

Hey Lunati and Holley!

[Forkin' Crazy]

Animals are not self aware???? What kinda crock of shit is that?
My sheep, Fluffy, loves me and I love her too......:eek!:
LOL!
And I do think that is should be legal for deer to hunt!!!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/767deerkill1.jpg

[flat broke]

Busti,
You should probably hike down to your local community college and take one course on begining law, and a second on either the scientific method, or an introduction to logic.
You are using the syntax of law to argue a point, while in America, moral issues decided by law are based on the intent and spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. A dog license refers to a dog's owner while a child's birth certificate identifies paternal parties or guardianship. Both indicate responsibility for the dog or the child. You then twist the syntax (difference between "owner" and "guardian") to indicate that the dog is property. A short search will yeild you proof in settled court cases where the injury to a person's pet won an award beyond the property value of the animal. If I hit your car, you could sue me in court for the cost of repairs and any lost opportunity suffered by being without your vehicle during the repair period. If you were to kill my dog (assuming you'd live this long) you would be levied with a suit not for the material damages, but for the emotional trauma inflicted by your actions; and based off of similar cases, you might be on the hook for quite a judgement.
The reason that I keep picking at your argument isn't because I disagree with you. I disagree with a ton of crap on this board that I never bother with. The thing that gets under my skin is that you site logic as the basis of your belief system and then use horribly twisted interpretations of fact to build flawed arguments supporting your beliefs. Then rather than say, I think X, you think Y, and thats great cause we live in America and have that right, you end with the indication that those that oppose your view are wrong and infer that they don't utilize the same "objective reasoning" that you do. What you are using is "Subjective Reasoning" You have a belief and find examples to support it. Objective reasoning would be to sample all of the examples, and then build a theory around that data. If ever contradicting information crosses your theory, the theory would be revised to accomodate the data.
I respect your right to your beliefs and don't question your beliefs because of what they are, but rather how your support them and propgate the growth of your beliefs.
Chris

[flat broke]

Dave,
Didn't you mean to say...
Originally posted by RiverDave
Well to answer your question... I almost take offense to the word "it" when you asked me if "she" had rights.. ;)
If someone harmed my dog... well I wouldn't want to be in their shoes and yes I'd take it far more harsh then someone denting my truck..
However though, if someone dented my truck... LOL I wouldn't want to be in there shoes either. Becuase "Betsy" has feelers too. ;) :D Dent in the door = flipping the trailer hitch upside down and putting it through various panels on the other vehicle.
(that's of course providing that I won the ensuing fight from the denting program and had recovered from from my nasty blown out flip flop induced injuries) :)
RD
Sorry Dave, I couldn't resist
Besides if anyone f'd with your four legged bitch you can bet there would be more than one or two people ready to educate the perp. She truly is your better half, and I would hate think of anything happening to the gal.
Chris
BTW, ask hacker for some pics of his new pup. Slightly lighter in color and a little taller, but almost a dead ringer for Neevers.

[Forkin' Crazy]

I agree w/ some and disagree w/ others. That's what makes us all different, right?
I cannot convince some of you that my views are the ones to live by, just like you cannot convince me that your views are the ones to live by.
I love furry little creatures!
Some one said something about mammals....Here's one for you that is meeting a cruel fate... but others would disagree!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/767rat_.jpg
:eek!:

[BGMAN203]

I just watched the loin video. All I got to say is, why? What did that lion do to the hunters? That was ****ed up, I wish the lion would of gotten a better piece of that asshole! Don't get the wrong idea, I am not a tree hugger, but unless that lion did something to you, leave him alone. Your just gonna piss him off when he starts to feel thoes bullets bouncing off of him.

[Kachina26]

Originally posted by BUSTI
Cig,
think society as a hole has declined as far as moral values are concerned. People commit acts that in past generations would not have been tolerated.
There is a horse owner who gets paid when his nag wins!!!!! and when the horse as no more commercial value he send it to the glue factory or puts a bullit in its head (get ready for this).........
BECAUSE THE FING HORSE IS HIS PROPERTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, but I think almost all of us would agree (perhaps with the exception of yourself) that if he went down to the stables after the horse lost a race, and beat the hell out of it, he would be committing a despicable act. Not to mention he would be committing a crime, even if he did it in the privacy of his own basement.
By the way, the word is tantamount, not tad amount.
:D Just teasing ya!

[Kachina26]

Originally posted by Havasu Cig
That is some F@#ked up shit. I agree with a lot of you, there are some animals that should not be hunted.
Anyone remember the Megadeth song from the early 90's that talked about hunters shooting animals that had been raised in cages to hunt. Good song, talked about the hunters having no balls.
I think some people hunting would be fun.;) I loved that album.

[BUSTI]

FlatBroke,
I never once in this debate have I ever drew a correlation between a dog license and a childs birth certificate...never once. My belief system is based on facts..animals are routinely considered in fact, in law and by most personal standards of almost evrybody you and I know as personal propertry. You may not like my examples of animals being personal property but they are. the horse breeder like the dog breeder is afforded many of the rights to personal property such as tax deductions. I know professional horse breeders that by and sell horses and when they buy one for $5,000.00 and later sell it for $15,000.00 they must pay capital gains and the new value of the additional $10,000.00 becomes income for them. Go ask them if the law considers their animals personal property or not.
What I find disturbing about your last post is that you make assumptions about what I think...how the fuch do you know what I think. I have not once through this discourse changed my position regardless of what arguements you or anybody else has made...I believe that animals are our personal property and the law agrees with me. And as far as serving up eroneous arguements you have made plenty. Your car denting example falls short of describing the liabilty one could suffer that is far greater than just the cost of the property and the loss of the use of the property. Go and burn down your neighbors house because you dislike him and see how fast you will be pursued by the police as well as by the homeowners attorney for the loss of his property as well as the emotional damage you caused the homeowner for destroying a life time of family airleooms with little or no commercial value but with incalcuable emotional value. Not including the grief and suffering you may have caused his family.
I do not believe that there is even a remote similiarity between a birth certificate and a dog license. I am sorry but I think you should take your own advise and run don't walk to the local JC and you should take business law 101. When you go to a pet store and want to PURCHASE a pet...you must offer the store owner legal tender..cash! Once you have completed your purchase you are issued a cash receipt by the store owner verifying that you have paid for your property! This receipt entitles you verification that OWNERSHIP of the pet has legally passed to you from the store owner as your legal PROPERTY! This receipt provides you with all of the righst of ownership along with the other property you purchased from the store owner such as dog bowls, leashes and kennels that you also purchased at the time you bought your pet.
In many cases the store may offer you ownership warranties for the animal against defects (health issues ect) just as if you purchased other personal property. The transaction documentation, the receipt, just does not conote responsibility for the pet it identifies and verifies transfer of ownership. I have not twisted anything ...you just don't want to admitt a fact of law animals are considered as personal property in this country. That is all I am saying. Your arguement is twisted not mine. If your dog was killed or injured by another man YOU WOULD BE entitled to damages against this invidual not your dog. The law says YOU would be entitled to vet Dr. bill reimbursement, on going treatment costs ect., ect., plus compensation for the emotional harm you suffered not your dog.
Yes cruel treatment of animals is horrible but deal with the fact that animals are our property. That issue does not deminish our love for our animals. Nor does it erase the fact that human animal relationships are complex and many times the favorite family dog is regarded by that family as a loved and cherished part of the family. But the law does consider fito the family mut as the family personal property.
That is why a big game ranch can provide you with animals to kill and the law recognizes that the big game is the lawful property of the ranch owner. And if your dog happens on to this ranch the ranch owner could shoot your dog and you would probably given the circumstances do shit to the ranch owner. How ever if a child wandered on the ranch owners property under no circumstances would he be entitled to shoot the child...the child has rights that the dog doesn't. For that matter if your mut wandered into my back yard and I percieved the dog a threat, not even a leathal threat, I could waste your dog and beat it out of yard and probably the wouldn't do shit to me. Why do i know this because i raise beagals and my neighbor had a pain in the ass pit bull that ran the neighborhood and the shit constantly would try to gain access to my back yard. the dog bum rushed my front screen scaring my wifeand i beat it with a pipe. The police were called and nothing happened to me. The dog owner brought suit and the case was dismissed and at the trial the judge said that the DOW OWNER was responsible for his own PROPERTY.
Do I find the lion video repugnant?...not really...I personnaly wouldn't hunt lion like that but they have right to. i believe that that I have used objective reasoning to arrive at my belifes on this subject. Yes we can agree to disagree and yes I believe that every body is entitled to their opinion and i would fight to the death for you to voice you opinion no matter how ignorant I thought your opinion was. Unlike you i won't pretend to know how you arrived at your value system objectively or subjectively...
and you really don't know mine...you just have your SUBJECTIVE OPINION.

[clean supreme]

put that magnificent animal in a cage and let 6 assholes shoot at it (what a rush)
:mad: at least the lion went out swinging.

[Jim Anderson]

Busti you are a ****ing jerkwad!!!! It's called the balance of nature you ignorant prick. All your nonsensical BS is just that. Nature balances out by predators and prey. The Lion is damn near extinct and doesn't need some rifle wielding schmuck out hunting for the "sport of it" to be on his ass. And since when is 4 guns to one lion considered sport? How about you put on your lion suit that is in your closet and you go out and play prey for a weekend?

[Moomawnster]

I actually like that video .... the Lion is the only animal in the whole thing with any bravery , class or dignity ...... I have no problem with killing animals but the real trophy here is the footage of incompetent effups ...... the pride they display at the end of that fiasco is appalling , with just a little more of a chance the Lion would have taken all of em ! ............ Those dumb ****s wouldn't last a day in the jungle !

[BUSTI]

Jim Anderson,
Your recent post on this issue is hopelessly pathetic....take a chill pill and please stop showing your ignorance. Take a deep breath and the next time you want to post up an arguement have somebody else do it for ...you jack ass!
Read Flat Broke's response in this debate. It is insightful, full of facts, it has a measured about of passion so the reader can understand how important the subject matter is to the writer. He criticizes with out making his attack personal. His witt is a true sign of intellect. Actually his arguements were powerful and over the weekend he has made a lot of sense to me.
How ever your response only demonstrated your ignorance and vulgarity:p

[Pointerman]

While I don't think they should be hunted... Lions are no where near extinct. Tigers, yes. Lions, no.

[Jim Anderson]

Busti,
I am highly educated and not ignorant. I don't care how well you presented your argument, your logic is painful to say the least. It is so disgusting that I felt it was necessary to to go into the dirt with my post to you.

[BUSTI]

Jim,
All I am trying to say is that many and I do mean many people do believe that the animal rights issue has infringed on their property rights. The right to have big game ranchers provide big game for hunting just for spoort is legal and well with in the animals owners right to do so. Many of us find the practice abhorant and many of us don't.
For many of us that don't find it a bad thing it comes down to property rights and we belive animals are our property to do with what we please like hunting them on preserves. I don't know of any legitimate hunter that wants the right to abuse or torture animals! That is a horrible prospect. But the animal issue as a property right issue has already been established in law. People can own their animals for the express purpose of killing them for sport....period...that is all I was saying.
There are so many complex issues on this subject, the point I was making is that just because I think animals are subject to property that it doesn't preclude me from being a loving animal owner. I raise beagals and I love my dogs and you would be hard pressed to find a more loving place for dogs than my home...but at no time do I ever mistake them for having the same importance in my life to human life. I would in a heart beat sacrifice any of my dogs for the saving of even a strangers life ..man, woman or child ..in my books people come first and have more rights than animals and I am shocked that for that you would call me names.

[XTRM22]

Hey Busti,
You certainly have some passionate beliefs, Your points are a little verbous for my simple little brain but all seem to be well thought out. I jumped in here pretty early to defend what I was referring to as a hunters lifestyle and this thread proceeded into some heated discussion. The thing that I have most enjoyed is the lack of name calling that these type of threads can bring about. I am sorry to see a post like Jim Anderson's, for a " highly educated" individual he certainly doesn't seem to see the benefit of discussion/arguement without the childish vulgarity of name calling. Whether people agreed with your point or not you deserved better then that type of response, and I'd venture the guess that Havasu Cig would even agree with me, (although he might not admit to agreeing with me :D ). I just needed to get that off my chest after reading the last few posts. For me I've pretty well expressed my opinions to the best of my ability and have nothing else to add to the topic, other then if you could really surrender one of your dogs lives over that of a strangers, you're a better man then me.
Chuck

[JakeAisA]

Originally posted by Jim Anderson
Busti you are a ****ing jerkwad!!!! It's called the balance of nature you ignorant prick. All your nonsensical BS is just that. Nature balances out by predators and prey. The Lion is damn near extinct and doesn't need some rifle wielding schmuck out hunting for the "sport of it" to be on his ass. And since when is 4 guns to one lion considered sport? How about you put on your lion suit that is in your closet and you go out and play prey for a weekend?
Dude, what is your problem? Out of left feild you just come on like an asshole.

[Jim Anderson]

XTRM22,
I am just passionate about this subject. That is exactly how I feel about anyone condoning the killing of lions for sport that was depicted in the video. I am not out to gain brownie points for being PC. I thought I was rather reserved in my comments.

[Jim Anderson]

Are you having a problem readin my point Jake? Did you not understand where I stand on this issue?

[JakeAisA]

Originally posted by Jim Anderson
Busti you are a ****ing jerkwad!!!! It's called the balance of nature you ignorant prick. All your nonsensical BS is just that. Nature balances out by predators and prey. The Lion is damn near extinct and doesn't need some rifle wielding schmuck out hunting for the "sport of it" to be on his ass. And since when is 4 guns to one lion considered sport? How about you put on your lion suit that is in your closet and you go out and play prey for a weekend?
This is reserved?
"...you are a ****ing jerkwad!!!!...you ignorant prick"
I'm actually interested in seeing you un-reserved.

[XTRM22]

Originally posted by Jim Anderson
Busti you are a ****ing jerkwad!!!! It's called the balance of nature you ignorant prick. All your nonsensical BS is just that.
Dude? reserved? I don't blame you for being passionate, I am too but those were cheap shots. I'm not into shooting animals in a cage either, but this was a fairly intelligent exchange until that post. I'm not to PC myself but passionate or not I think it was uncalled for.
Chuck

[BUSTI]

xtreme22,
How jim anderson can come to such conclusions about me by reading the posts on this one very nonessential to life issue is beyond me. If it was abortion, gay adoption or even elderly health care I could even understand it. Guys like anderson I am sure frequently engage in road rage and often fly off the handle at people flipping the finger at them and such. This kind of behavior is such a huge indicator of personal lack of control that it is truely a window to andersons personality.
He is truely a very weak minded individual....I am sure he is an embarrassment to people around him all the time.
Ya his massive amounts of education really shined through with all his brilliant arguments on the subject!:D

[Rexone]

Jim Anderson... what type of meat are you using in those tacos?

[Tom Brown]

I enjoy my own variety of Canadian sausage in tacos.

[ratso]

...see what kind of shit you stirred up now Tom???:D