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View Full Version : AFE vs. K&N for Cummins Dodge



CA Stu
01-22-2004, 11:41 AM
Is there any difference in their intake systems?
I see the AFE is about $40 cheaper... and they both bost hp gains... Seems like cheap power to me.
I was thinking a new FIPK / AFE intake and a set of 275 hp injectors (for a total cost of about $500) might finally explode my auto trans...:D
Thanks
CA Stu

STV_Keith
01-22-2004, 11:59 AM
We only sell the AFE anymore. Neither will give your Cummins any HP...don't let their advertising fool you. Lower restriction before the turbo = quicker spool and slightly lower EGT's, but that's it.
I assume you have a 98.5-2002 Cummins if you're looking at the RV275's. Why only go with 25-30hp gain?

Outnumbered
01-22-2004, 12:03 PM
What exactly is spool and what is the advantage of quicker spool?
OL

CA Stu
01-22-2004, 12:16 PM
Well, I was just browsing ebay and seen them 275's for sale for about $250 a set, that's all.
I already have the Banks Ottomind , a drilled out wastegate actuator tube ( high tech power if I've ever seen it) , a 4" exhaust from the turbo back.
I like the Ottomind's safety feature keyed off the pyrometer (mounted in the exhaust manifold, before the turbo). My EGT has only hit over 1250 once or twice, on the big grades towing about 7500 lbs of stuff (4900 lb boat and 2600 lbs of beer :D ). Even then, I don't really have to floor the pedal to cruise about 70 up them.
My truck seems to run like a big bolck gas motor for the most part, except right off the line. Once it is rolling, it just keeps on accelerating. No end to the torque. I would like to throw a set of bigger injectors now and eventually a Banks Quick-Turbo on it. These trucks can sure haul ass set up correctly!
What other injector sizes are available and what kind of cost am I looking at? Are there any other mods needed to run them, i.e. different fuel pump / pressure regulator / fuel lines?
Thanks!
CA Stu

CA Stu
01-22-2004, 12:19 PM
Spool means the turbo boost pressure and the time to generate it.
i.e., some turbo's will develop 30 lbs of boost a lot quicker than others. They spool up quicker= more power sooner.
As far as I understand. Which ain't too far:confused:
CA Stu

STV_Keith
01-22-2004, 12:30 PM
Stu, more power is always available with those trucks. Check out the site ( http://www.dieseldynamics.com ) and play with the "configurator. It will show you want you need for a given power level. LOTS of options.

Outnumbered
01-22-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by CA Stu
Spool means the turbo boost pressure and the time to generate it.
i.e., some turbo's will develop 30 lbs of boost a lot quicker than others. They spool up quicker= more power sooner.
As far as I understand. Which ain't too far:confused:
CA Stu
So you should see a little quicker accelleration with an intake kit?
OL

CA Stu
01-22-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Old Lavey
So you should see a little quicker accelleration with an intake kit?
OL
As far as I know.
intake kit = less restriction = quicker spool = more zip = happier owner.

CA Stu
01-22-2004, 01:49 PM
These are the injectors I mentioned
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2454769754
They are listed as 275HP, I checked the configurator and my truck bone stock is listed as 210 HP.
Also, I was wondering if the mods made on a diesel are cumulative? Like getting more power from an intake if the injectors have been replaced versus stock injectors.
I assume it would be so, but why stick my head up a cow's ass when I can ask the butcher if it's a good steak, so to speak :)
Thanks
CA Stu

BowTie Rick
01-22-2004, 04:43 PM
As for intake, go with K&N. Yes, I work there so I am biased but there are some things you should know abut AFE. Basically, they lie through their teeth. Their web site says their 7.3L Powerstroke kit makes 50 HP. That is the most outrageous claim I have ever heard. They say they filter better than K&N but they use round pleats that place a flat surface toward incoming dirt (not good for a depth loading filter) and 2 independent labs show they filter less. By using rounded pleats, they also get less pleat count which means less overall surface area. What they gain is a slightly greater flow rate. They say K&N panel filters have bleed of the urethane into the media which reduces flow. Ever seen a filter dirty on the edges or do they get dirty in the center? The reason K&N has this bleed and they do not is the K&N is a one-piece injection molded seal. Theirs is 4 individual strips glued together that can be pulled apart if twisted. Yes, they look prettier but will you know how long the seal has been apart while its in the air box? The K&N FIPK does make power on the Dodge diesel, just not as much as a gasser. Average gain (notice its not "up to") is 8.2 for this application. The $40 difference is the intake tube that AFE does not replace. The K&N tube is less restrictive than OE and that gives better spool up times than stock. K&N offers contingency in APBA, IHBA, NHRA, ARCA, CORR, ATPA, and many more. We are title sponsors of the NHRA Winternationals in Pomona and NHRA Supernationals in Englishtown. We contribute to the well being of motorsports. They are former employees that were let go and have a grudge.

STV_Keith
01-22-2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by CA Stu
These are the injectors I mentioned
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2454769754
They are listed as 275HP, I checked the configurator and my truck bone stock is listed as 210 HP.
Also, I was wondering if the mods made on a diesel are cumulative? Like getting more power from an intake if the injectors have been replaced versus stock injectors.
Stu, those are NOT Bosch 275's, those are HP Plus copies of the 275's. They used to be good, but not so much anymore. If you're specifically looking for the HP of a 275 injector (about 25-30rwhp gain in your truck), then do stick to original Bosch units. The body number on them will be 0432 193 635.
In our configurator, we list the stock HP as what the avg truck makes AT THE WHEELS. All of our figures are rear wheel figures from our own dyno testing on our inhouse dyno. You truck may be rated at 215 or 235hp, but should make between 200-210 in stock form.
Regardless of what K&N or AFE say about their filters, on your year truck, the HP gains are NIL. Expect slightly better turbo spool up, which means the turbo beings to make boost sooner - which means the computer starts to deliver the fuel (power) sooner; and a slight drop in EGT temperatures.
As far as the AFE/K&N war goes, from what our testing has shown, at high HP (600+) the AFE will outflow the K&N by just a little bit (tested 4hp more than the K&N). Basically, on a normal truck it's a wash. Pick the one you like better. We sell the AFE now...used to sell the K&N.
And Rick, I have the same kind of dyno here that you have in your building. On a stock truck, the AFE 54-10071 or K&N FIPK kit will yield NO gains.

STV_Keith
01-22-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by BowTie Rick
The $40 difference is the intake tube that AFE does not replace. The K&N tube is less restrictive than OE and that gives better spool up times than stock.
Without knocking the tube, I will say that we have made over 787rwhp with a 2001 Dodge AUTOMATIC through that same stock tube (attached to that AFE 54-10071 box/filter).
How much do you really need it?

hot_diggity_dog
01-23-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by STV_Keith
Stu, those are NOT Bosch 275's, those are HP Plus copies of the 275's. They used to be good, but not so much anymore. If you're specifically looking for the HP of a 275 injector (about 25-30rwhp gain in your truck), then do stick to original Bosch units. The body number on them will be 0432 193 635.
In our configurator, we list the stock HP as what the avg truck makes AT THE WHEELS. All of our figures are rear wheel figures from our own dyno testing on our inhouse dyno. You truck may be rated at 215 or 235hp, but should make between 200-210 in stock form.
Regardless of what K&N or AFE say about their filters, on your year truck, the HP gains are NIL. Expect slightly better turbo spool up, which means the turbo beings to make boost sooner - which means the computer starts to deliver the fuel (power) sooner; and a slight drop in EGT temperatures.
As far as the AFE/K&N war goes, from what our testing has shown, at high HP (600+) the AFE will outflow the K&N by just a little bit (tested 4hp more than the K&N). Basically, on a normal truck it's a wash. Pick the one you like better. We sell the AFE now...used to sell the K&N.
And Rick, I have the same kind of dyno here that you have in your building. On a stock truck, the AFE 54-10071 or K&N FIPK kit will yield NO gains.
Keith I started out with a K&N and changed out to the AFE a few years ago.
What I notice the most and the main reason I purchased it for, was to lower my EGT. I have run my truck real hard up the grades and have found with the AFE my EGT are lower without a doubt. I would see the 1250 mark pretty easy with the K&N.
I claim nothing but what I have experienced in my truck, through trial and error.
Hot (Claim what you want) Diggity Dog:cool:

bigq
01-23-2004, 09:51 PM
Hate to piss on the HP fire here, but is the turbo diesel more apt to have problems from aftermarket filters. Cummins names K&N right on their website as something not to use. I have used K&N on all my cars including my blown stang, which it seemed to gunk up, anyway is the filter a must when adding HP to cool the EGT's? Obviously if it flows more air it is not going to filter as good.

Outnumbered
01-23-2004, 10:48 PM
They say ANY aftermarket filter voids the warranty and give K&N as an example. I asked my dealer mechanic about this and he said it is due to lack of maintenance rather than a lack of filtration. They don't want the liability of poor filter maintenance causing engine damage so they keep it simple with stock replacement intervals. When they are warrantied for 100k miles they have to be careful.
OL

Outnumbered
01-23-2004, 10:51 PM
"Obviously if it flows more air it is not going to filter as good."
That is not necessarily true. The AFE and K&N flow more air because of their surface area and pleating. I believe they actually filter down to a smaller micron than stock but I could be wrong. Bowtie Rick can expand on this more I'm sure.
OL

bigq
01-24-2004, 01:01 AM
Well that makes sense about the cleaning, which means when they get dirty they do not filter as good. I would agree about the surface area, but it would go against physics to say that something with the same area could flow more air and filter just as well or better than a material that flows less air, uh... I think.:D
Check this out:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm
BTW, is there anyone that has used the K&N with the turbo and noticed any thing on the inlet of the turbo fan, run your finger across it.

CA Stu
01-24-2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by bigq
BTW, is there anyone that has used the K&N with the turbo and noticed any thing on the inlet of the turbo fan, run your finger across it.
OK, I'm gonna go rip my turbo off my truck and give it the white glove/ anal intruder test:rolleyes:
CA Stu <- K&N fan

bigq
01-24-2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by CA Stu
OK, I'm gonna go rip my turbo off my truck and give it the white glove/ anal intruder test:rolleyes:
CA Stu <- K&N fan
Yea.. that's what I was looking for, jeez. All I was saying is the manufacturer of your motor warns on their website about using the K&N. I am sure it is not the only one they wouldn't want on there. As OL said it might be for cleaning issues. My point was they let through more particles than the stock and they seem to gunk up the intake area. If you want the motor to breathe you need to use them, wasn't trying to bash K&N I have always used them.

CA Stu
01-24-2004, 08:34 AM
I have used K&Ns for umpty ump years on all kinds of vehicles. The only place I don't care for them is on off-road bikes. A K&N that is fully loaded with dirt will choke out your motor and you'll be stranded. I found this out south of Ocotillo Wells. And East of Barstow. Which doesn't sound like a big deal, until you're left all alone in the desert. A fully loaded foam filter will just let dust enter your motor. A fully loaded K&N won't let dust or air enter your motor.
The K&N vs stock air filter argument is as old (and pointless) as Ford vs Chevy.
Cheers
CA Stu
PS thanks for the heads up on the warranty deal, if my Dodge takes a shit I'll be sure to put the stock air filter back on it before we load it on the tow truck :D
PPS I have had a K&N filter on my Cummins since day one, I just want to score the whole "cold air" intake kit.

STV_Keith
01-24-2004, 02:07 PM
The big deal in the past with K&N vs. Cummins was due to the seal (or lack thereof) with the drop in filters in the stock airbox. The box is large and hard to seal. K&N supplies grease with their filter, so that the lid creates a seal with the top of the filter. AFE uses a softer durometer seal, which smooshes down better to create the seal.
Honestly, on a Cummins diesel with a stock turbo (ie, under 350hp), the filter makes little difference. It's when you start upgrading to larger turbos that the difference is noticed. Then we go straight to the open element unit, not the drop in.
The only real measureable benefit of the drop in is being able to wash and reuse it.

bigq
01-24-2004, 04:29 PM
Well don't get me wrong I will still put in an open element from someone, if for no ther reason it just looks cool and they look like they help.
:D :D :D
keith: any news on the juice yet?:):D :D

STV_Keith
01-25-2004, 02:24 PM
For what truck Bigq?

bigq
01-25-2004, 02:37 PM
That would help huh...:rolleyes:
2004 Dodge Cummins Ca SO.
I just received a notice from Banks about the 6 gun. says +105 HP/+258 lb-ft and when you add the "Speed-Loader" it goes up to 126/290. I have no idea what the speed loader does, maybe pulse width?
Seems like the best set-up is the Edge EZ and stack the juice with the Attitude for watching the engine.
It is truely amazing the power you can add from just electronics on these engines.:D

Jordy
01-25-2004, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by CA Stu
A fully loaded foam filter will just let dust enter your motor. A fully loaded K&N won't let dust or air enter your motor.
I don't know which would be worse, being stranded in the desert with a filter that can be cleaned and the motor will run again or getting back to find a motor full of dirt that needs to be rebuilt. I run K&N's with Outerwears on my Banshee and have not had problem one with them. I clean them either every time, or every other time out and I keep all the sand and crap out of my motor. Seems like pretty cheap insurance to me. :D

STV_Keith
01-25-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by bigq
That would help huh...:rolleyes:
2004 Dodge Cummins Ca SO.
I just received a notice from Banks about the 6 gun. says +105 HP/+258 lb-ft and when you add the "Speed-Loader" it goes up to 126/290. I have no idea what the speed loader does, maybe pulse width?
Seems like the best set-up is the Edge EZ and stack the juice with the Attitude for watching the engine.
It is truely amazing the power you can add from just electronics on these engines.:D
Have you played with the configurator on our website? Go take a look. There's a lot more than 125hp available now, with another 125+ coming with the new pulsewidth/timing box on the horizon. However much you want, we can provide it...and almost definitely cheaper than Banks.
http://www.dieseldynamics.com Look for the configurator link at the bottom of the page.

CA Stu
01-27-2004, 12:33 PM
In case anyone is wondering, I picked up the FIPK from K&N yesterday (a million thanks to Rick, he's the man!).
It is a real clean install, took me about an hour to do everything and from my seat -of-the-pants dyno, my truck seems to have picked up a little zip. Looks neat, too.
As far as the " they don't add HP", with all due respect, there's a dyno chart included in the box (!) that reflects an 8 HP increase. Seems like more air flow does equal more power to me. But I'm jut a consumer, not a pro...
My air filter needed replacing anyway, so it's not a true test of a clean stock filter and box to a FIPK kit, but I'm happy with the change for sure.
I'm glad I have other responsibilities that suck down my money, or I would be hard at work making my truck into a dragster.
The amount of power these new diesels have the potental for is amazing.
However, my next stop is the stereo shop for some tunes.
The thread about HDD's rig inspired me to add some goodies and a stereo, but I'm one of those guys that prefers the "stock" look.
I always thought "sleeper" vehicles were cooler ....
Thanks
CA Stu

bigq
01-27-2004, 10:44 PM
cool they do look nice, now all you need is some more fuel to go with that air.
:D
I hear ya on the stereo the stock unit is a little under powered. I did have to have the DVD installed for the kids, that thing is a god send on long trips.;)

Outnumbered
01-27-2004, 11:05 PM
Do you guys have the Infinity System? Mine has the Infinity Sound package with 6-disk in-dash and I have to say it sounds clean and loud for a stocker. Even has good bass. I think it has a small sub somewhere but I'm not sure. I don't think i will need to touch it.
OL

bigq
01-27-2004, 11:50 PM
Not for me, just the standard am/fm/cd. After the Cummins upgrade I was barley able to afford power windows.:D
The Infinity I heard sounds great. I was told if I just change the head unit the speakers in mine would sound a lot better.

CA Stu
01-28-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Old Lavey
Do you guys have the Infinity System? Mine has the Infinity Sound package with 6-disk in-dash and I have to say it sounds clean and loud for a stocker. Even has good bass. I think it has a small sub somewhere but I'm not sure. I don't think i will need to touch it.
OL
I've got the Infinity system, just seems kind of empty in the bottom end. I mean it's loud and clear and all, but to compete in the Hot Boat High School Parking Lot Stereo Competition, I need to throw some cash at it.
:D :D :D
CA Stu <- JL Audio Stealthbox on the way KA BOOM!

PHX ATC
01-29-2004, 10:00 AM
I went with the AFE. I didn't give any seat of the pants feeling as to having more hp, but it sounded much louder than the OEM filter. I believe Keith when he says it doesn't add any more hp at all. Hype, advertising, money...bad combo for consumers.

CA Stu
01-29-2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by PHX ATC
I believe Keith when he says it doesn't add any more hp at all. Hype, advertising, money...bad combo for consumers.
What is the dyno chart in the K&N box then?
A figment of my imagination, or a fraud?
Thanks
CA Stu

Outnumbered
01-29-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by CA Stu
What is the dyno chart in the K&N box then?
A figment of my imagination, or a fraud?
Thanks
CA Stu
I bet the're both right. With only 8hp I bet you could dyno 10 trucks and get some that saw gains of 8 hp, some that saw none, and maybe a few that saw somewhere in between. 8hp aint much but I still like the K&N and I bought one from Bow Tie Rick. Still need to put it on but I say it can't hurt as long as you keep it clean.
OL

BowTie Rick
01-29-2004, 04:04 PM
OL is 100% correct. The 8HP on the chart is considered an average gain. Do you think K&N would lie in its ads or claims? Only Fram and Purolator are ahead of K&N in overall air filter sales (K&N has a 16% market share). They have quite a bit at stake and to simply falsify claims could ruin it all. Don't you think that someone would sue in a NY minute is they could prove otherwise? A competitor (won't name who) claims 50 HP on a Powerstroke intake kit but they have nothing to lose as they are too small for litigation. Check out K&N testing (http://knfilters.com/powertesting.htm) Remember K&N is not new and this is its 35th year of business. It would have folded long ago if the filters passed dirt, made no power, and lied to consumers.

bigq
01-29-2004, 04:24 PM
Are those them in your avatar? if so I think I need two.:D :D
On another note it appears I was wrong about the filters from K&N on the Cummins, as long as you don't get the drop in it should be safe if you keep it clean, but I still think some of that oil is pulled through.;)
As far as HP gains their are many products that claim with dyno runs that the product gains so much. I have seen many independent test that show it just isn't true. Like Rick says though i guess if you took the average.

bigq
01-29-2004, 04:30 PM
Just noticed the temp sensor was moved to the box instead of the inlet tube, do you know why? Would the temp be the same?

CA Stu
01-30-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by bigq
Just noticed the temp sensor was moved to the box instead of the inlet tube, do you know why? Would the temp be the same?
Temp sensor?:confused: :confused:
Do you mean the vacuum gauge that tells you when your air filter is dirty? :confused:
The only intake air temp sensor on my Dodge is located on the drivers side of the engine on the back of the manifold...
The dyno chart in the box of the FIPK kit (which I scored from Rick, too (he's the man!)) is two consecutive runs on the same truck on the same dyno, reflects an 8.2 hp increrase.
Thanks
CA Stu

Outnumbered
01-30-2004, 03:19 PM
Maybe I should put mine on this weekend and see how it works. Damn things been sitting in the garage for 2 months:mad:
BTW, put some 33x12.50-17 Procomp ATs on today. They fit perfect and look better than stock 265-70-17 (31x10.50). Do I need to do anything for the computer to compensate for the tires?
OL

CA Stu
01-30-2004, 03:51 PM
Dude! I put mine on the back of my bike to bring it home and put it on 1/2 hour later!
Took 1 hour, toughest part was getting the stupid rubber bit on the heat shield! Getting the stupid rubber bastards off the locating studs was gay, too. I ended up unscrewing them, spraying the rubber dealio with WD, then yanking them off. Also, getting the pressure sensor out of the airbox was easier with a good hosing of WD, too.
Get out your WD-40, pliers, a nut driver, and you're in business!
Have fun
CA Stu

BowTie Rick
01-30-2004, 04:14 PM
LOL, I should have warned you about the edge trim. Some of those 90 degree turns can be a mo-fo. :D How do you like it so far? I'll see if I can't "borrow" an Outerwear for it for ya. What color is your truck? They are the sh!t and really extend cleaning intervals.

CA Stu
01-30-2004, 04:32 PM
I love it! I have popped the hood several times to sport it to my buds...
My truck is white.
All the cool guys have white trucks, Rick... ;)
On the 90 degree turns, I took a pair of diagopnal pliers and cut the metal part to enable me to make the turn nice and clean, left the rubber part intact...
Shade tree mechanicin' at it's finest.. :D
Thanks
CA Stu

Outnumbered
01-30-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by CA Stu
I love it! I have popped the hood several times to sport it to my buds...
My truck is white.
All the cool guys have white trucks, Rick... ;)
On the 90 degree turns, I took a pair of diagopnal pliers and cut the metal part to enable me to make the turn nice and clean, left the rubber part intact...
Shade tree mechanicin' at it's finest.. :D
Thanks
CA Stu
Ah...mine is white too:D .
Thanks, BTR:D

bigq
01-30-2004, 06:03 PM
OL: I am going to put on a level kit before I put on wheels and tires, but 33" are it for me.
CAStu: On mine it has a temp sender on the inlet tube and if you look at the directions on the K&N site for the 2003 they move it out of the intake. The filter minder is put in the end of the filter itself.

CA Stu
01-30-2004, 07:06 PM
Ah so! You have honolable 03....
Mine is a 2001, hence my ignorance :confused: ;) :confused:
So solly
Thanks
CA Stu

CA Stu
01-30-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by bigq
CAStu: On mine it has a temp sender on the inlet tube and if you look at the directions on the K&N site for the 2003 they move it out of the intake. The filter minder is put in the end of the filter itself.
That's a good idea, I understand on my truck the IAT (intake air temperature) sensor has a tendency to get filthy over time and then you get wacky problems...
Cheers
CA Stu

dunerider
02-05-2004, 03:08 PM
If you have the balls to talk trash on another company at least post your name. You must work in the shipping area of K&N. And just to tell you that the guys that started aFe were not fired, they left because they were feed up with the management and they knew they could engineer a better product. aFe engineers there product so you dont need grease or gaskets to make a seal. I actually changed over from a k&n to aFe Proguard 7 and i dont think I will ever go back to the k&n

CA Stu
02-05-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by dunerider
If you have the balls to talk trash on another company at least post your name.
Uhhh... you didn't post your name, dude?
Cheers
CA Stu:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

dunerider
02-05-2004, 03:56 PM
Well i dont work for afe.

STV_Keith
02-05-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by dunerider
If you have the balls to talk trash on another company at least post your name.
Who are you calling out? Rick?

bigq
02-05-2004, 04:57 PM
who cares, comes on just to talk shit with the 2 post, I say F*** em'.:yuk:

BowTie Rick
02-06-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by bigq
who cares, comes on just to talk shit with the 2 post, I say F*** em'.:yuk:
:D We have a winner! :D

BowTie Rick
02-06-2004, 10:43 AM
P.S. My name is Rick and my position is in my profile :D