Lou Dobbs on CNN

[AzDon]

Lou Dobbs is running a series of stories on his show called "Exporting America". He also runs frequent segments on such "cheap labor" subjects as illegal immigration and Wal-Mart. Tonight, he had this guy on that helps American companies export their high paying jobs to cheap labor countries. He ripped the guy a new asshole and then invited him back for more discussion! Good Job Lou!!

[25 Eagle]

Saw that...Lou did a good job. Guys company was called NEOIT and he really couldn't say shit for himself or what he is doing to help put thousands out of work.

[Blown 472]

But thats good, because it is capitalism in it's finest. Look out here come the chearleaders.:rolleyes:

[HighRoller]

I don't particularly care for Lou, or CNN for that matter. He continuously ignores the positive indicators of the thriving economy and focuses on irrelevant statistics that supposedly show how "bad" the economy is. Then there's his qualifiers for every piece of good news. Jobless rates are down BUT that's just because people have stopped looking. Yeah, right. Retail sales up 17% from last year this time, BUT that's obviously because of all the unused gift certificates being redeemed. Maybe that's why nobody watches CNN anymore. You get the news from their point of view, not as it happened.

[eliminatedsprinter]

I'm not going to cheerlead, but Lou Dobbs is not someone I'd look to for a factual, unbiased, objective story. He also isn't someone I'd go to to learn about business and economics from either... But hey, that's just me.....:rolleyes: ;)

[AzDon]

Ever notice that when most of the comentators and pundits talk about "new" jobs that are being created, they never mention that they pay more than the "old" jobs that were lost..... Why do you think that is??
Lou calls it like he sees it and I think many more Americans are on his wavelength than he gets credit for!

[HighRoller]

Yeah, but Lou has a definite agenda. I've never once heard him mention the stock market going up last year, even though it did to the tune of 22%! I prefer to get the WHOLE story.

[AzDon]

Originally posted by HighRoller
I don't particularly care for Lou, or CNN for that matter. He continuously ignores the positive indicators of the thriving economy and focuses on irrelevant statistics that supposedly show how "bad" the economy is. Then there's his qualifiers for every piece of good news.
Perhaps the positive indicators are the truly irrelevant stats. If I got "downsized" and had to get a "cheaper" job that was new, I'd resent my new job being categorized as a positive stat, especially if my new employer helped put my former employer out of business!

[twistedpair]

Originally posted by AzDon
Ever notice that when most of the comentators and pundits talk about "new" jobs that are being created, they never mention that they pay more than the "old" jobs that were lost..... Why do you think that is??
Some of that can be attributed to 'changing of the guard', for lack of a better term. My ex-employer in the telco industry, for example wanted to lose some head count. They offered some pretty sweet deals on early retirement and hoped to cut about 4000 jobs. Problem was, 22,000 took them up on their offer, which resulted in some new hiring. Naturally, you're not going to pay a new hire the same as a seasoned vet.
Also automation plays a large part these days. You can pay a flunky minimum wage to babysit the machine that does the same work that used to require several skilled (and highly paid) craftsmen.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by HighRoller
Yeah, but Lou has a definite agenda. I've never once heard him mention the stock market going up last year, even though it did to the tune of 22%! I prefer to get the WHOLE story.
Yeah, and I wonder if he would mention the predatory taxes and the gov red tape that drives business away.....Or who created those thousands of jobs that will be "lost overseas" in the first place...But I'll just have to wonder, because like I said, if I want to learn more about macro economics and public policy I'll take the trouble to read something by an economist, not by watching Lou Dobbs...:rolleyes: ;)

[mirvin]

Uh, gentlemen, whether you like it or not, Lou Dobbs is the only member of the news media willing to talk about these issues!! Everyone else ignores them and pretends like Janet Jacksons nipple is an issue.
Mirvin

[JakeAisA]

Originally posted by AzDon
Ever notice that when most of the comentators and pundits talk about "new" jobs that are being created, they never mention that they pay more than the "old" jobs that were lost..... Why do you think that is??
Lou calls it like he sees it and I think many more Americans are on his wavelength than he gets credit for!
And he sees it through biased eyes...that's the point. Ever read Bias by Bernie Goldberg? There's a reason why Lou Dobbs is on CNN.

[JakeAisA]

Originally posted by twistedpair
Also automation plays a large part these days. You can pay a flunky minimum wage to babysit the machine that does the same work that used to require several skilled (and highly paid) craftsmen.
You know this argument reminds me of a story I read once about an economist who went to Switzerland, or some European country, to visit a public works program--the building of a damn. The economist went there because he was hired to advise the government on the efficiency of the project.
When he got to the site on the first day, he saw that the escavation of the earth wasn't being performed by heavy dozers and shovels but by workers with hand shovels and small dozers and wheel barrels. He was shocked and asked the project manager why they weren't using the obviously more productive equipment. The Project Manager replied "Because we want to put people to work and we can't employ as many workers if we use the heavy equipment." Astonished and personally outraged, the Economist answered "Then why the hell don't you build the damn thing with spoons?"

[AzDon]

Okay Jake-
I get that you are a USC graduate that probably grew up in an affluent area of OC and work with your dad, Busti (either making him reeeallly old or you reeeallly young) I'm entertained and amused by your "pure economics" opinions that seem to come purely from textbooks and an IGM snobbery that shows complete disrespect and insensitivity for other Americans that haven't been blessed with a priveledged upbringing and opportunities that you have. Perhaps you consider blue-collar people to be whiners and leaches that provide services of very little, or no value to you. Perhaps you have no need for these services at all and think all these folks should retrain and go into real estate like you! Perhaps you think retraining is a piece-of-cake for undereducated people making minimum wage and that they should need no help accomplishing this.
Have you ever hand -stacked freight, pushed a lawnmower professionally, or been so desperately unemployed that you've taken a paper route???? I Have!! I have also started, nurtured, and eventually closed down a business that wasn't going to work out.
Your "pure economics" arguments, if allowed, unchecked, to become reality, will result in a diminished lifestyle for every working American...YOU INCLUDED... as the wages we expect are taken away and given to foriegners willing to do our jobs cheaper. Do you really believe that this won't eventually affect the price of real estate or cause retrainees to flood your field and drive commissions down?
We need to first, admit that we have an immediate responsibility to take care of the health of our own country's economic well being before allowing companies doing business here to export our jobs in pursuit of a fast buck! Who will buy all these imported goods when we've all been reduced to "world community" wages?
Your dad has obviously done his job with regard to seeing that you get the education needed to succeed financially in life, but you have underdeveloped insight into the fact that ALL JOB DESCRIPTIONS are important to our society and a civilized standard of living IS the bithright of ALL of our citizens, AND THIS REQUIRES HIGHER THAN WORLD MARKET WAGES!!! It is the reason that our poorest citizens have running water, electricity and flush toilets. It is also the reason that US Americans remain the world's most dedicated shoppers!
I've taken my lumps in life, learned my lessons, and done okay! All five of my vehicles and boat are American made, and cash paid for..... What do you drive?

[Dave C]

I feel sorry for people that lose their jobs especially if they go overseas.
but by blaming corporations puts the cart before the horse.
thanks to government over-regulation, insurance, etc..

[AzDon]

I Think that companies that want to leave should leave completely and not expect to sell any of their products in this country!

[Freak]

Unfortunately not all people are borne with a high intellect. These persons depend on these jobs to survive. What are you going to retrain them for if nothing is left? John borne with a IQ of 85 that assembles shower heads cannot be retrained to do something else such as HVAC. It takes some smarts he does not have. Would you rather they be on welfare.........
Life would be great is everything was black and white but when people are involved it can never come close to that.

[mirvin]

So Freak, what you are saying is that we need some "MODERATION"?!!
Most people, at least in my world, whether Dem or Rep or whatever, are fairly moderate. Meaning that whenyou get down to the core issues they generally agree.
Why can't we get a legislature that reflects this instead of just having AZDON on the left and JAKEASIA on the right???
Mirvin

[AzDon]

You've got me wrong, Mirvin! I don't support welfare or entitlements although I do believe in social insurance programs, as long as they pay for themselves. If believing that all American workers are entitled to a civilized living wage then, okay, I'm A lefty! I also believe that companies that have done well here have a social responsibility to buy their labor and raw materials here in return for their success and as a down payment on future success. Wal-Mart is a perfect example of a slash-and-burn role model and unfortunately, too many executives worship their business model because, at present, it works!

[Freak]

Why yes and generally that is what happens.

[HighRoller]

a civilized standard of living IS the bithright of ALL of our citizens
WRONG! The only birthrights our citizens are entitled to are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. NOWHERE in the constitution does it say we are guaranteed a certain economic standard of living. We the citizens of this country have always aspired to MAKE the standard higher through hard work. Your entitlement mentality is why this country is losing the battle in so many ways. Listen to yourself, Don. You buy only U.S. made stuff, without relizing that the foreign competition is the ONLY reason U.S. made goods aren't junk. Do you think your American made car would be as nice if there wasn't a similar Japanese model it had to compete with? NO! Look at the American car industry in the 60's and 70's when the quality just kept spiraling downwards until we hit the early 80's and the Japanese took over. If the Japanese had never pushed us, our U.S. made cars would still be crap today because there WOULD BE NO INCENTIVE FOR IMPROVEMENT.

[mirvin]

AzDon, you're sounding more and more moderate;)
Mirvin:D

[HighRoller]

Don, in a capitalist society the citizens are only ENTITLED to what they EARN, and how much they earn is dictated to them by the free market and the demand for their skills. Your ideas of guaranteeing everybody a fair wage for life are nothing short of socialism. Money is what motivates companies to be better, and the ability to earn more money if you work harder is what made the country great. Just because the business landscape changes from time to time is no reason to start saying the sky is falling. If you can't find a job you can always move, get more education or change industries. It's called freedom of choice. YOU have to go get the dollars, they will not find you.

[eliminatedsprinter]

The problem I see between capitolism and government regulation can be summed up in a sports analogy. Government is supposed to be the referee, it is not supposed to step in and attempt to fix the outcome.

[JakeAisA]

Originally posted by AzDon
Okay Jake-
I get that you are a USC graduate that probably grew up in an affluent area of OC and work with your dad, Busti (either making him reeeallly old or you reeeallly young) I'm entertained and amused by your "pure economics" opinions that seem to come purely from textbooks and an IGM snobbery that shows complete disrespect and insensitivity for other Americans that haven't been blessed with a priveledged upbringing and opportunities that you have. Perhaps you consider blue-collar people to be whiners and leaches that provide services of very little, or no value to you. Perhaps you have no need for these services at all and think all these folks should retrain and go into real estate like you! Perhaps you think retraining is a piece-of-cake for undereducated people making minimum wage and that they should need no help accomplishing this.
Have you ever hand -stacked freight, pushed a lawnmower professionally, or been so desperately unemployed that you've taken a paper route???? I Have!! I have also started, nurtured, and eventually closed down a business that wasn't going to work out.
Your "pure economics" arguments, if allowed, unchecked, to become reality, will result in a diminished lifestyle for every working American...YOU INCLUDED... as the wages we expect are taken away and given to foriegners willing to do our jobs cheaper. Do you really believe that this won't eventually affect the price of real estate or cause retrainees to flood the field and drive commissions down?
We need to first, admit that we have an immediate responsibility to take care of the health of our own country's economic well being before allowing companies doing business here to export our jobs in pursuit of a fast buck! Who will buy all these imported goods when we've all been reduced to "world community" wages?
Your dad has obviously done his job with regard to seeing that you get the education needed to succeed financially in life, but you have underdeveloped insight into the fact that ALL JOB DESCRIPTIONS are important to our society and a civilized standard of living IS the bithright of ALL of our citizens, AND THIS REQUIRES HIGHER THAN WORLD MARKET WAGES!!! It is the reason that our poorest citizens have running water, electricity and flush toilets. It is also the reason that US Americans remain the world's most dedicated shoppers!
I've taken my lumps in life, learned my lessons, and done okay! All five of my vehicles and boat are American made, and cash paid for..... What do you drive?
Azdon:
I understand completely where you're coming from and I'm not trying to be insensitive in the least bit. You're right about a couple things about me...you're wrong about more. My whole point here is that when markets are free and progress is allowed, hard working people, regardless of natural ability or birth status, find ways to create and perform more profitable and lucrative products and businesses. All I'm trying to say is that the "working men" in America would be better off if they weren't forced, bribed and conned into working in less and less profitable industries. I say this honestly and from the bottom of my heart--America is better off shipping mature industry jobs, like manufacturing, and sticking to the more profitable and progressive endevours. I'm not saying this becuase it sounds good. I'm saying because it's the truth. It is in all of our interests to make sure as many people are as well off as it is possibly attainable in all of us. How can we do that? By keeping on our feet, by being the leaders in the world in terms of technology and growth, by remaining the smartest and bravest society ever known. We cannot do this if we close our economy off from the rest of the world. We cannot do this if force mature, old, unprofitable businesses to stay here while allowing the rest of the world to catch up and then dominate in the more profitable, high growth ventures.
Think about it. The world is turning to free markets. Everyone is advancing. New technologies are being created. Foreign societies are increasingly stressing education and hardwork on thier children. The rest of the world is beginning the drop the ancient and outdated "victicrat" mentality in favor of capitalism. They're starting to realize that they too can do it, they too can do what we do, that they too can make something out of nothing, regardless of the circumstances they were born in. In light of this trend, America cannot afford to think that we can exist without trying to compete against these forces. Because if we do not decide to remain the freest and most productive economy in the world, someone else will. The fall of America will be our own fault. It will be our own arrogance that will be to blame. We cannot afford to ignore these trends.
You see, whether we like it or not, whether you like it or not, the world is growing and a world economy is beginning to take shape. It's happening no matter what. We have two choices--ignore it and go one assuming we're the only economy on earth or recognize it, remain the leaders, take advantage of the opportunity to pass off easy endevours to asia and south america in favor of the more profitable, more lucrative opportunities.
For example, what if America had refused, as a society to adopt the computer? What if America had refused to ship computer hardware production overseas because we wanted "Americans" to "manufacture" computers and the software? Would our software industry have been as big and dominating if our businessmen didn't recognize that software is the place to be because computer production is an increasingly bad business to be in--becuase the components are easy to make and its easy for foreign businesses to get into without having to invest so much time and money like software requires?
The world is going to be players and we want to be doing what makes us the most. This is optimal for our economy and every American. Is there less certainty? Yes. But that's capitalism. I'll guarantee you the rewards are many times over.
Americans need to see themselve as traders, as mini CEO's of thier own labor. We will be passed up by the world if we grow up thinking that our first job is a right and that we have a right to die doing that job. Americans need to constantly be looking for ways to improve thier own earning power. Also, they have to aware of thier situations and recognize when other opportunities are worth their time and effort. They need to stress education and independence to thier children. This country will slide into mediocrity otherwise.
Now, I said you were right about a couple things and wrong on others. First, I am young (26), but my father isn’t (53). I did go to Junior Highschool and Highschool in Orange County, North Huntington Beach. But I grew up before then in Riverside and North Huntington Beach isn’t what I consider affluent—it’s more of a cross section of all income levels. I wasn’t born affluent and with a silver spoon in my mouth. My parents worked hard for what they provided us, but they were definitely not wealthy. My parents would tell you that they just barely got by while my brother and I were in school growing up.
Now, did I go to USC? Yes…on scholarships, grants and loans. I earned it. My parents couldn’t afford college and they knew it…so they forced me to earn it. I wasn’t allowed to have a job during Highschool. I was allowed to play football and I was told that my main job to was to be a good citizen and study hard. I asked for a job—my father refused—he told me to study instead.
Now, about my “naïve bookworm arguments.” Let me tell you something about USC. It’s just as liberal as the rest of the universities in America. Their business school is pretty much middle of the road, but the rest of USC is run by and controlled by the same sheltered socialists that run every other campus. I was in the minority there. My views were not learned in college. My “economics” is not from college. I’ve sought it out.
Now, I don’t know if I’ll ever get you to agree with me, but I do hope you understand my point—Every American is better off if we stress education and character, if we free up our businesses and stress the importance of staying on the cutting edge. I believe your way will have us lose our claim as the lone super power of the world. I believe your way will force poverty, despair and mediocrity on the bottom rung of Americans. I believe your way and the Democrat way will hurt poor and working class Americans the hardest. Why? Because the wealthy won’t stay. When there’s a better place to do business then America…they’ll leave. The poor and working class will have nothing at that point. America is what it is because the best and the brightest are clawing over themselves to get here and then prosper here. When there’s some place better to do that, they’ll leave. What will that do to for the “working man.”
You see, I think your way is uncompassionate in the end because it leaves nothing but mediocrity for lower skilled Americans. Instead, we need to be teaching our children that they can only rely on their own judgement. That they must work hard in school and earn everything they have. They must be taught that great opportunity is out there and that all they have to do is work hard to get it. In America, a poor black kid from ghettos of Queens, NY, can earn his way to Harvard and the top of any industry he wants…if he works hard for it. Look at Colin Powell. He did it. Look at Sam Walton. He did it. You don’t have to be born of privelage to make it in America. You just have to work for it. That should be the message, not that you have a right to everything for nothing because dammit, you’re born poor. That’s foolish and its destructive.

[AzDon]

Highroller- You apparently would have no problem with Burger King employees living in cardboard shacks on the edge of the garbage dump....just as long as they show up clean and wash their hands. ALL SUBSTANDARD WAGES ARE SUBSIDIZED BY SOMEBODY! The reason you don't recognize a problem with sub-civilized wages is that the kids working at BK are clean because their parents (thank to a living-wage job) provide the civilized lifestyle that BK minimally requires of applicants. If the BK employee is a single mother, Than WE AS TAXPAYERS subsidize BK.
Two of my vehicles are full-size Chevy trucks from the 70's and I don't believe that they had any foriegn competition at that time (or even now!)
I believe that in 1976, when my crew-cab was new, Honda Civics outsold Chevy pickups, yet I can't remember the last time I saw ANY Honda Civic from the 70's (???) I'm not aware of ANY foriegn-made tow vehicle that's worth a sh*t.... at any price!
Foriegn stuff better? don't make me laugh- it's just cheapo!

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by AzDon
Okay Jake-
I get that you are a USC graduate that probably grew up in an affluent area of OC and work with your dad, Busti (either making him reeeallly old or you reeeallly young) I'm entertained and amused by your "pure economics" opinions that seem to come purely from textbooks and an IGM snobbery that shows complete disrespect and insensitivity for other Americans that haven't been blessed with a priveledged upbringing and opportunities that you have. Perhaps you consider blue-collar people to be whiners and leaches that provide services of very little, or no value to you. Perhaps you have no need for these services at all and think all these folks should retrain and go into real estate like you! Perhaps you think retraining is a piece-of-cake for undereducated people making minimum wage and that they should need no help accomplishing this.
Have you ever hand -stacked freight, pushed a lawnmower professionally, or been so desperately unemployed that you've taken a paper route???? I Have!! I have also started, nurtured, and eventually closed down a business that wasn't going to work out.
Your "pure economics" arguments, if allowed, unchecked, to become reality, will result in a diminished lifestyle for every working American...YOU INCLUDED... as the wages we expect are taken away and given to foriegners willing to do our jobs cheaper. Do you really believe that this won't eventually affect the price of real estate or cause retrainees to flood your field and drive commissions down?
We need to first, admit that we have an immediate responsibility to take care of the health of our own country's economic well being before allowing companies doing business here to export our jobs in pursuit of a fast buck! Who will buy all these imported goods when we've all been reduced to "world community" wages?
Your dad has obviously done his job with regard to seeing that you get the education needed to succeed financially in life, but you have underdeveloped insight into the fact that ALL JOB DESCRIPTIONS are important to our society and a civilized standard of living IS the bithright of ALL of our citizens, AND THIS REQUIRES HIGHER THAN WORLD MARKET WAGES!!! It is the reason that our poorest citizens have running water, electricity and flush toilets. It is also the reason that US Americans remain the world's most dedicated shoppers!
I've taken my lumps in life, learned my lessons, and done okay! All five of my vehicles and boat are American made, and cash paid for..... What do you drive?
Wow, this view into the mind of a class warrior is really worth looking at again.;)
Hmmm, not exactly following Dale Carnagie's methods of winning friends and influencing people.......:rolleyes: :D

[AzDon]

The only definition of an old, obsolete job, seems to be that someone else is willing to do it cheaper. We're losing software and tech-helpline jobs to India and Asia. Machinists and tool-and-die makers are losing jobs to overseas companies as well. In this age, foriegners can learn or copy valuable technology nearly as fast as we can create and identify potential career paths. Since virtually any job can be done cheaper by foriegners, what is a fair way to decide which jobs go and which jobs stay? I don't believe that it's our right (as a society) to pick winners and losers (such as telling Safeway that they can't pay Burger King wages), but if we don't get a handle on this "Exodous to cheapness",nobody in this country is going to be offerred opportunities for honest work because between job exporting and illegal aliens, nothing will pay enough.
So, young Mr Smartguy, What do you propose that we train people to do that can't be mudwrestled away from them by a cheaper labor market?
The only solution I can see is to only reward companies with access to our market that have purchased a majority of their content and labor from other Americans, or have paid an appropriate share of our social costs for not doing so!
I believe that no income taxes should be levied against individuals, and all businesses (after a 5 year start-up period) should pay 5% of their WORLDWIDE gross earnings as the cost of doing biz here. The only tax credits or deductions allowed would be for employing Americans or doing business with American suppliers. If Honda and Toyota don't like it they can dump their sh*t someplace else. The IRS staff could be reduced and collections per investigation would increase because they'd be chasing fewer, bigger tax cheats.
And to show my libertarian side... I'd have no problem with eliminating Unemployment, Social Security, Disability,Medicare, welfare, etc,etc. But I'd want all the funds paid into these programs on my behalf returned to me!

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by JakeAisA
Azdon:
I understand completely where you're coming from and I'm not trying to be insensitive in the least bit. You're right about a couple things about me...you're wrong about more. My whole point here is that when markets are free and progress is allowed, hard working people, regardless of natural ability or birth status, find ways to create and perform more profitable and lucrative products and businesses. All I'm trying to say is that the "working men" in America would be better off if they weren't forced, bribed and conned into working in less and less profitable industries. I say this honestly and from the bottom of my heart--America is better off shipping mature industry jobs, like manufacturing, and sticking to the more profitable and progressive endevours. I'm not saying this becuase it sounds good. I'm saying because it's the truth. It is in all of our interests to make sure as many people are as well off as it is possibly attainable in all of us. How can we do that? By keeping on our feet, by being the leaders in the world in terms of technology and growth, by remaining the smartest and bravest society ever known. We cannot do this if we close our economy off from the rest of the world. We cannot do this if force mature, old, unprofitable businesses to stay here while allowing the rest of the world to catch up and then dominate in the more profitable, high growth ventures.
Think about it. The world is turning to free markets. Everyone is advancing. New technologies are being created. Foreign societies are increasingly stressing education and hardwork on thier children. The rest of the world is beginning the drop the ancient and outdated "victicrat" mentality in favor of capitalism. They're starting to realize that they too can do it, they too can do what we do, that they too can make something out of nothing, regardless of the circumstances they were born in. In light of this trend, America cannot afford to think that we can exist without trying to compete against these forces. Because if we do not decide to remain the freest and most productive economy in the world, someone else will. The fall of America will be our own fault. It will be our own arrogance that will be to blame. We cannot afford to ignore these trends.
You see, whether we like it or not, whether you like it or not, the world is growing and a world economy is beginning to take shape. It's happening no matter what. We have two choices--ignore it and go one assuming we're the only economy on earth or recognize it, remain the leaders, take advantage of the opportunity to pass off easy endevours to asia and south america in favor of the more profitable, more lucrative opportunities.
For example, what if America had refused, as a society to adopt the computer? What if America had refused to ship computer hardware production overseas because we wanted "Americans" to "manufacture" computers and the software? Would our software industry have been as big and dominating if our businessmen didn't recognize that software is the place to be because computer production is an increasingly bad business to be in--becuase the components are easy to make and its easy for foreign businesses to get into without having to invest so much time and money like software requires?
The world is going to be players and we want to be doing what makes us the most. This is optimal for our economy and every American. Is there less certainty? Yes. But that's capitalism. I'll guarantee you the rewards are many times over.
Americans need to see themselve as traders, as mini CEO's of thier own labor. We will be passed up by the world if we grow up thinking that our first job is a right and that we have a right to die doing that job. Americans need to constantly be looking for ways to improve thier own earning power. Also, they have to aware of thier situations and recognize when other opportunities are worth their time and effort. They need to stress education and independence to thier children. This country will slide into mediocrity otherwise.
Now, I said you were right about a couple things and wrong on others. First, I am young (26), but my father isn’t (53). I did go to Junior Highschool and Highschool in Orange County, North Huntington Beach. But I grew up before then in Riverside and North Huntington Beach isn’t what I consider affluent—it’s more of a cross section of all income levels. I wasn’t born affluent and with a silver spoon in my mouth. My parents worked hard for what they provided us, but they were definitely not wealthy. My parents would tell you that they just barely got by while my brother and I were in school growing up.
Now, did I go to USC? Yes…on scholarships, grants and loans. I earned it. My parents couldn’t afford college and they knew it…so they forced me to earn it. I wasn’t allowed to have a job during Highschool. I was allowed to play football and I was told that my main job to was to be a good citizen and study hard. I asked for a job—my father refused—he told me to study instead.
Now, about my “naïve bookworm arguments.” Let me tell you something about USC. It’s just as liberal as the rest of the universities in America. Their business school is pretty much middle of the road, but the rest of USC is run by and controlled by the same sheltered socialists that run every other campus. I was in the minority there. My views were not learned in college. My “economics” is not from college. I’ve sought it out.
Now, I don’t know if I’ll ever get you to agree with me, but I do hope you understand my point—Every American is better off if we stress education and character, if we free up our businesses and stress the importance of staying on the cutting edge. I believe your way will have us lose our claim as the lone super power of the world. I believe your way will force poverty, despair and mediocrity on the bottom rung of Americans. I believe your way and the Democrat way will hurt poor and working class Americans the hardest. Why? Because the wealthy won’t stay. When there’s a better place to do business then America…they’ll leave. The poor and working class will have nothing at that point. America is what it is because the best and the brightest are clawing over themselves to get here and then prosper here. When there’s some place better to do that, they’ll leave. What will that do to for the “working man.”
You see, I think your way is uncompassionate in the end because it leaves nothing but mediocrity for lower skilled Americans. Instead, we need to be teaching our children that they can only rely on their own judgement. That they must work hard in school and earn everything they have. They must be taught that great opportunity is out there and that all they have to do is work hard to get it. In America, a poor black kid from ghettos of Queens, NY, can earn his way to Harvard and the top of any industry he wants…if he works hard for it. Look at Colin Powell. He did it. Look at Sam Walton. He did it. You don’t have to be born of privelage to make it in America. You just have to work for it. That should be the message, not that you have a right to everything for nothing because dammit, you’re born poor. That’s foolish and its destructive.
Jake
This is a nice try but it's wasted on a closed mind.....;) I'm not even sure this is AzDon you are talking to here. The style I'm seeing today looks more like that of his son.
AzDon is usually a little more temperate in his responses. :cool:
AzDon, No disrespect intended, but is that really you?:confused:

[HighRoller]

I'm laughing at how closed minded AZDon is towards FACTS. If Burger King employees are living in a cardboard shack that's because they have neither the desire nor the education to get a better job. Minimum wage was not designed for families to live on, it's for people who are getting their start in the employment sector. It used to be that you started at minimum wage and worked your way up by gaining more skills and education and you were reawrded with better wages. And foreign cars are cheap crap? Puh-lease! Show me any website, magazine or other source that has a list of top cars where more than half of them were not foreign. Don't get me wrong, I like American cars too but Nissan, Toyota and Honda have been kicking ass for a long time. So please don't let your personal feelings intrude on your reason. I don't agree with most of the trade policies either, and I don't consider Toyota an American made car because they have a factory here. The profits still go to Japan. But how come you're not praising these companies for the thousands of jobs and billions of dollars they supply to our economy? You gotta be consistent, Don.

[AzDon]

Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
Wow, this view into the mind of a class warrior is really worth looking at again.;)
Hmmm, not exactly following Dale Carnagie's methods of winning friends and influencing people.......:rolleyes: :D
It's funny, because my annual income isn't anywhere near the poverty threshhold and I'm white, which means that the only scholarships my kids qualify for are merit-based. I guess I am a bit of a class warrior because I feel the working class people in this country were economically underappreciated BEFORE all this job exporting, March to cheapness and illegal alien workers crap became hot-button issues. I'm worried that Americans could become beggars in our own country as the foriegners show up here with wads of US currency and buy up property with it. (Visit Fountain Valley or Alhambra if you think this can't happen).
The whole world wants our lifestyle desperately and all they are truly being offerred is our jobs.....IF THEY ARE WILLING TO DO THEM CHEAPER!!

[AzDon]

Eliminated-
My son Nick has no time for this stuff since he was offered a job as a software designer. I've got a bad virus, or I'd be working on the truck we're building for him. Highroller didn't answer what foriegn tow vehicle is worth a sh*t or when he last saw a 70's era Honda Civic. Personally, there is zero chance I'd ever go across the desert in a 12-year-old Jap car, yet I routinely do so with a 30 year old Chevy truck.... towing 6000 pounds! JD Powers and cosumer reports are bought and paid for by Jap companies. And one more thing, Highroller... who gets to decide which employers get to pay minimum wage and will those that do then be allowed to discriminate against applicants that haven't got somebody else supporting them?
I'm sorry if I'm a bit harsh, but closed- minded works both ways and I suspect that Jake hasn't paid enough dues to disrespect the efforts of those less fortunate than himself to get by in life ( He neither answered what he drives or what kind of menial jobs he's ever done in his adult life) I know that the economic realities in this country are going the ways that he worships and I'm trying to warn against this. The sky isn't falling...more like smog-- gets worse gradually and then one day you wake up and wonder when you last saw the sky!

[eliminatedsprinter]

Don
Come to LA you will see far more old Hondas, Toyotas, and Nisson, cars on the road here... Their durablity is reflected in their haveing much higher resale value than the "american" cars in their class. I can't even imagine a ten year old Ford taurus (or any other American mid sized car) running as well as or being worth half as much as a Honda Accord of the same age, mileage, and origional selling price. Now boats are a different matter. We have built the best boats in the world ever since the days of the Yankee Clippers. Cougar may make a nice boat up there in Canada, but the only boats I'll ever want are all made right here in the USA...
P.S.
I would also much rather tow with a Toyota Land Crusier or Sequoia than with a Ford Expedition.
Hmmmmm, let's see Ford F250 built in Canada. Chevy Silverado built in Canada. Dodge Ram built in Mexico. Toyota Tacoma built in U.S.A. I guess your'e right , I should buy American.:rolleyes: ;)If you're worried about the profits going back to Japan what's stopping you from buying their stock and diverting some of those profits back here??
P.P.S. Why does it sound like you resent the fact that Busti got the education and training to be successfull and then made sure his son got the same? Why do you think having a parent who is successfull and raises and educates him well, somehow makes Jake the cluless one in this debate? To me that sounds a bit like backward thinking. But what do I know, I went to public schools and state Universities...:wink:
:D

[JakeAisA]

Originally posted by AzDon
Eliminated-
My son Nick has no time for this stuff since he was offered a job as a software designer. I've got a bad virus, or I'd be working on the truck we're building for him. Highroller didn't answer what foriegn tow vehicle is worth a sh*t or when he last saw a 70's era Honda Civic. Personally, there is zero chance I'd ever go across the desert in a 12-year-old Jap car, yet I routinely do so with a 30 year old Chevy truck.... towing 6000 pounds! JD Powers and cosumer reports are bought and paid for by Jap companies. And one more thing, Highroller... who gets to decide which employers get to pay minimum wage and will those that do then be allowed to discriminate against applicants that haven't got somebody else supporting them?
I'm sorry if I'm a bit harsh, but closed- minded works both ways and I suspect that Jake hasn't paid enough dues to disrespect the efforts of those less fortunate than himself to get by in life ( He neither answered what he drives or what kind of menial jobs he's ever done in his adult life) I know that the economic realities in this country are going the ways that he worships and I'm trying to warn against this. The sky isn't falling...more like smog-- gets worse gradually and then one day you wake up and wonder when you last saw the sky!
Dues have nothing to do with it. Not only is it none of your business, but you shouldn't care about it. I have paid my dues, my family has paid it's dues. But who cares? If I hadn't, my success wouldn't be at your expense. Wealthy people didn't get wealthy at the poor's expense. Conversely, the poor aren't poor because wealthy people "took" anything away from them. What you have in life is your responsible to go out and earn--from your freinds and family and in terms of your carreer.
I drive a dodge truck...but that's none of your business. I'm in the process of buying a Cadilac Deville, but that's none of you business. I've worked for $5 bucks an hour and I've delievered pizza's to help my family put me through school...but that's none of your business. My customers don't ask me these things before they pay me...they ask me what I can do for them. Why? Becuase it doesn't matter to them and it shouldn't. What matters is your value to others in terms of what you can trade with them, products, services or labor.
Your logic flies in the face of everything that is American. Like I said in another post--we embargo countries like Iraq and Cuba to destroy thier economies, what makes anybody think a self-imposed embargo of America would all of a sudden be a beneficial thing to do?
No answer.

[HighRoller]

Don, could you post your documentation proving that Consumer Reports and J.D. Power are Japanese owned? I need facts please.

[AzDon]

I'm in LA about three days a week and I've seen the crap people drive around. Most of the oriental stuff looks a lot more beat at a younger age than the domestic stuff."Old" for a Jap car is ten years. I repeat the challenge: tell me when you last saw a 76-80 Honda Civic. I'm sure their original numbers matched or exceeded chevy pickups in the same years, yet very few, if any still exist... And 76-80 Chevy pickups...everywhere! I agree about the Taurus... It's a cheap piece of crap created in response to cheap-crap foriegn competition as are, IMO, ALL front-wheel-drive American cars. Camaros, Mustangs, Mark-8's, T-Birds, Crown Vics etc. compare quite favorably in performance and durability with foriegn cars in the same price range. And American truck-chassis'd stuff is WAY beyond compare! I know there are jap trucks capable of towing, but doubt they are durable enough to still be towing 6000 lb when they are 30 years old.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by AzDon
I'm in LA about three days a week and I've seen the crap people drive around. Most of the oriental stuff looks a lot more beat at a younger age than the domestic stuff."Old" for a Jap car is ten years. I repeat the challenge: tell me when you last saw a 76-80 Honda Civic. I'm sure their original numbers matched or exceeded chevy pickups in the same years, yet very few, if any still exist... And 76-80 Chevy pickups...everywhere! I agree about the Taurus... It's a cheap piece of crap created in response to cheap-crap foriegn competition as are, IMO, ALL front-wheel-drive American cars. Camaros, Mustangs, Mark-8's, T-Birds, Crown Vics etc. compare quite favorably in performance and durability with foriegn cars in the same price range. And American truck-chassis'd stuff is WAY beyond compare! I know there are jap trucks capable of towing, but doubt they are durable enough to still be towing 6000 lb when they are 30 years old.
Ten years is nothing for a Japanese car. Honda's normally can expect to last 300,000 miles with proper maint...The last time I checked, the car that had the highest % of those sold lasting 10 years or longer was the Toyota Celica... Don I have no problem with your'e taste in cars but please don't try to convince me that it is supported by all the "facts".
P.S. WWII ended in 1945. Why do you still use the word Jap? Do you also use the N word etc..?

[HighRoller]

But I still want to see the smoking gun on Consumer reports....C'mon, I need facts here...
Of course you're not going to see many Hondas that old because they were still new at the business. The 70-80 years of Chevy trucks were probably the best built vehicles in the history of mankind. But how many late 70's and early 80's domestic cars do you see still running good? Not many because they were pieces of crap. Even late into the 80's the American cars were crappy but improving. If you want a perfect example of what the Japanese are doing go drive a Nissan Altima. Then try and find an American car for the same price that even comes close. I don't think Japan will ever match American made trucks because we have too much of a head start. But they have more than matched us in the car market.

[HighRoller]

And if there wasn't market pressure on the American car makers from Japan and Europe, you'd still be buying an uncomfortable ass truck with vinyl bench seats and a 225hp carbed 350 engine that gets 8 miles to the gallon. If you need evidence of what lack of competition and protectionist attitudes get you, look at the post office and DMV. Would you say those people (who have a guaranteed wage and no competition)provide the best customer service in an efficient manner?

[JakeAisA]

Originally posted by HighRoller
And if there wasn't market pressure on the American car makers from Japan and Europe, you'd still be buying an uncomfortable ass truck with vinyl bench seats and a 225hp carbed 350 engine that gets 8 miles to the gallon. If you need evidence of what lack of competition and protectionist attitudes get you, look at the post office and DMV. Would you say those people (who have a guaranteed wage and no competition)provide the best customer service in an efficient manner?
Look at Government Education, too. (Some call it public school)

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by HighRoller
And if there wasn't market pressure on the American car makers from Japan and Europe, you'd still be buying an uncomfortable ass truck with vinyl bench seats and a 225hp carbed 350 engine that gets 8 miles to the gallon. If you need evidence of what lack of competition and protectionist attitudes get you, look at the post office and DMV. Would you say those people (who have a guaranteed wage and no competition)provide the best customer service in an efficient manner?
In the 70's I had a 73 chevy malibu with a 350 V8 and a 2 barrel carb that had a whopping 135 hp. It sucked gas like my motorhome and it broke all the time.... My 9 1/2 year old Integra has more power than that in it's tiny four banger, it out handles most sports coups twice it's price, and it has been far more reliable than any 90s american pony car could ever hope to be.

[AzDon]

Originally posted by JakeAisA
Dues have nothing to do with it. Not only is it none of your business, but you shouldn't care about it. I have paid my dues, my family has paid it's dues. But who cares? If I hadn't, my success wouldn't be at your expense.[QUOTE]
Your success does not bother me in any way... It's your insensitivity to the plight of Americans whose jobs have been, or about to be exported. Getting through SC is tough while delivering pizzas...wasn't trying to imply that you haven't earned your success. I'm a firm believer that we're all broke on different levels and we all believe that we work hard for our money. But, until you've been desperate to work, without prospects, you should reconsider the ease at which you're willing to write-off the jobs of others.
[QUOTE]
Wealthy people didn't get wealthy at the poor's expense. Conversely, the poor aren't poor because wealthy people "took" anything away from them. What you have in life is your responsible to go out and earn--from your freinds and family and in terms of your carreer. [QUOTE]
Okay- this is interesting because it denies that there is a limited amount of money in circulation. It also kind of denies that an employer makes money by reselling the services of the employee at a profit. Everybody benefits as long as they're being compensated fairly, but human nature and business sense makes us all "economists" at whatever level we're at.... paying the lowest price we can on our purchases while getting the most we can from clients. As a businessman that gets to pimp his own services daily, you get to set your pricing as high as your competition will allow. You are a direct seller of your services and are not subject to being sold short by an employer who , instinctively, feathers his own nest first!
[QUOTE]
I drive a dodge truck...but that's none of your business. I'm in the process of buying a Cadilac Deville, but that's none of you business. [QUOTE]
If I ever asked you to show me real estate, we would be done if you offerred to drive me in a foriegn car! It's good that you buy American though you're right that it's not my business!
[QUOTE]I've worked for $5 bucks an hour and I've delievered pizza's to help my family put me through school...but that's none of your business. My customers don't ask me these things before they pay me...they ask me what I can do for them. Why? Becuase it doesn't matter to them and it shouldn't. What matters is your value to others in terms of what you can trade with them, products, services or labor. [QUOTE]
I've done brakes and front suspension work for less than $3 an hour but I'm not bitching about it because that is all the job paid and I was working there freely. It was for the auto center of a large retailer who was not fairly sharing the proceeds of my labor with me. The value of my services FAR exceeded my compensation! As soon as I was able to break the shackles, I was outta there!
[QUOTE]
Your logic flies in the face of everything that is American. Like I said in another post--we embargo countries like Iraq and Cuba to destroy thier economies, what makes anybody think a self-imposed embargo of America would all of a sudden be a beneficial thing to do?
No answer.
Iraq has oil, so everybody tunneled around the embargo (us included) and traded with them anyway! What we have here that the rest of the world wants is affluent consumers with money to spend on goods...thanks to wages and lifestyle that are way above world standards! Logic would dictate that protecting the earnings and living standards of US citizens would be essential to preserving our status as the place where every other country wants to dump their cheap crap. I believe that we could pretty much cut the rest of the world loose and we would prosper and do without NOTHING! We would have to pay more for US made goods, but we'd be offering our fellow citizens meaningful employment, instead of bitching about handouts and high taxes!

[JakeAisA]

Originally posted by AzDon
Iraq has oil, so everybody tunneled around the embargo (us included) and traded with them anyway! What we have here that the rest of the world wants is affluent consumers with money to spend on goods...thanks to wages and lifestyle that are way above world standards! Logic would dictate that protecting the earnings and living standards of US citizens would be essential to preserving our status as the place where every other country wants to dump their cheap crap. I believe that we could pretty much cut the rest of the world loose and we would prosper and do without NOTHING! We would have to pay more for US made goods, but we'd be offering our fellow citizens meaningful employment, instead of bitching about handouts and high taxes!
You know nothing about economics.

[AzDon]

Originally posted by JakeAisA
You know nothing about economics.
Enough High wage jobs to go around --GOOD
Mostly Low Wage jobs --BAD
Money coming in--GOOD
More money going out --Bad
Exporting profitable goods and importing unprofitable goods-- GOOD
Importing profitable goods and exporting unprofitable, subsidized farm goods--Bad
I know how this thing basically works and exporting jobs and importing illegals is about nothing more than cheaper labor--- PERIOD!!

[eliminatedsprinter]

Don
Of course Jake denies that wealth is a limited resource. Every qualified economist around also does. It appears you still believe that old left wing myth that wealth is a limited reasource and "the rich" somehow are hogging up more than their share. This is a myth that is based on the denial of the fact that wealth can be created by someone who has an idea that prduces something that helps both those who sell and purchase it. Not to mention the jobs that it provides.....
Don U.S.C. has a very fine school of buisness and economics. It is obvious from his responses here that Jake absorbed something from that program while he went there....Don there is a reason that graduates from good buisness schools are in high demand and it's not because of nepotism or mysterious contacts. It's because they come out better prepaired to succeed and help other's succeed. You should listen to him. I am. I can tell from his posts that he knows more about economics than I do. And when you put him down for going to USC it became clear to me why. I'm not to proud to admit that I'm not professionally trained in business and economics. My professional education is in sports, fitness, and health care. I love to debate this stuff, but to be honest, I do it just as much to learn as I do to express an opinion or two....

[eliminatedsprinter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
[B]Jake
This is a nice try but it's wasted on a closed mind.....;)

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by JakeAisA
You know nothing about economics.
Jake. I TOLD YOU SOOOOO:p :p :p ;)
Don
I'm just having a little fun please don't be offended.;)
If you are. I hope you catch me at the lake. So I can give you a beer or two as a piece offering for the grief Ive given you today.;) :cool:
I'm just in one of those moods.:devil:
Have fun I'll be off line till monday..Then I'll be able to come back and read what you say when you call me the A$$ that I know I am....:D

[AzDon]

I fully expected to get a rise out of somebody with the "limited money supply" quip! While I believe that value can be created and added to the marketplace, the only way to realize this value is to get a buyer to agree to the value and pay you for it. I don't doubt that more value may be on the books than the overall dollars circulated, because the government simply prints money when it can't avoid paying. As for bills in print---WAY less! As more money is circulated, it would theoretically become less valuable, being backed by less gold, and cause price inflation.... except that we are no longer on the gold standard. The value of our money is a comparative value relative to other countries' currencies and kinda based on confidence. It's value is really backed by whatever madman has the authority to unleash US military might if the world market gets too pushy about redeeming it's value! I don't really understand about markets except that I know it's the big boys' playground and pofolks like me should only participate if we want to get fleeced!
I wasn't slamming Jake for being from SC.... My parents and grandparents are SC graduates. I actually enjoy that he's so passionate about what he believes to be right, because if there weren't folks like us willing to discuss this stuff than we wouldn't have anything meaningful to fill all this space with! During the Reagan years, USC had an economics professor named Arthur Laffer that was preaching that full employment would provide the government a double-dip benefit as those on welfare became taxpayers. The fruits of this concept were never realized in the 80's because Reagan did not make full employment a real priority. It was the Clinton administration that proved the "Laffer Curve" as a sound concept.... Enough of this money talk. I Hate math and I've got a headache and I gotta work in an hour...seeya!

[AzDon]

Jake, everybody-- yes I am passionate about my beliefs and don't hold differences of opinion personally... If you see my old yellow and orange daycruiser on the lake and present your self in a likeable way, I'm sure that I can find a beer for you in my cooler! (yes, free!!)

[Miss BK]

AzDon wrote: ALL JOB DESCRIPTIONS are important to our society and a civilized standard of living IS the bithright of ALL of our citizens, AND THIS REQUIRES HIGHER THAN WORLD MARKET WAGES!!! It is the reason that our poorest citizens have running water, electricity and flush toilets. It is also the reason that US Americans remain the world's most dedicated shoppers
I don't know a whole lot about economics, but I do agree with most of this statement.
The best quote I've heard lately was:
"America is the greatest place on earth. The worst thing America can do today, is forget WHAT has made it so great"
In the fall, the economic report said GDP rose by 8%. This was wonderful!
Or was it?
Same report said labor costs dropped by 15%.
Good for companies, but not so good for the employees.....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see this as American employees are producing 8% more, and getting back 15% less in wages and benefits, right?
For all you economic gurus, is this a positive trend for the greatest place on earth?

[AzDon]

It's encouraging to see people to agree with something I've said once in a while and even add to it!
Thanks BK!