There goes Blythe-

[hbhallett]

Colorado River Indian Tribes (CRIT) Threatens to Evict Waterfront Residents
By HOWARD MARKLE
The Desert Independent
February 16, 2004
BLYTHE, CA – Recently, letters have been written by the board of directors of West Bank Homeowners Association to its members; to Capt. Dan Ison, Riverside County Sheriffs Department; and Roy Wilson, Riverside County Supervisor, expressing fear that members face eviction from their homes located in what's known as the Colorado River Disputed Area, more particularly "Paradise Point". The association has reason to believe that their landlord, the Colorado River Indian Tribes (CRIT), is about to evict all residents in this and other river-front locations. This area has been disputed, as to ownership, for many years; however, residents who live there pay rent to the Tribe. Residents have an occupancy permit issued by the Tribe and rent is paid based on the amount of water frontage. Residents claim that the Tribe has no right to evict them, epically without due process. Some residents rent from holders of the permits, a kind of sub-let.
Members were advised last September to remove all personal property from their residences in order "to prepare for the worst". The second paragraph of the latest letter, dated February 9, 2004 reads, "The U.S. Supreme Court is scheduled to make a decision February 20, 2004, on whether the court will hear our case, with an announcement to follow Monday, February 23. Since the Supreme Court hears less than 10% of cases submitted, it is unlikely that they will hear our case. If the Supreme Court decides not to hear the case, we will have no current legal challenge to CRIT jurisdiction in the disputed area."
Some letters supplied to us here at The Desert Independent, dated February 20, 2004, are form-letters addressed to Sheriff Bob Doyle asking him to enforce the law against unlawful eviction. Residents are fearful of an abrupt and unlawful eviction that might include an attempt to destroy or confiscate their personal property. The dispute remains unresolved because of "the Tribe's invocation of their sovereign immunity." If an attempted eviction is based on a "citizen's arrest", the Sheriff's department will receive phone calls from residents requesting assistance. Letter-writers are living under permits issued by CRIT and that an eviction must be carried out by due process (Public Law 280), which means obtaining a court order. If a judicial remedy fails, residents ask the Sheriff to enforce the law. Since the Sheriff has not responded to letters written by the association, each resident and permitee is asked by the association to send a letter to the Sheriff, a letter-writing campaign as such. A sentence from one Association letter reads, "Therefore, due to his mute stance, we do not expect the Sheriff to uphold the law." The letter further warns residents to remove all personal possessions such as vehicles, boats, PWC's, and quads; it also reminds residents of the actions taken last year by the Chemehuevi at Havasu when a federal judge ruled against the residents.
We wonder if issues like this are causes for Blythe’s apparent dysfunction. The once-meandering Colorado River that created boundary disputes and water dispensing problems just might be enough of a deterrent for those who might wish to settle here; the Colorado is not likely to jump its banks again unless a dam fails, but the disputes over land and water continue. Will our farms go the way of the orange groves, and are we ready for some big-time recreation, golfin' and gamblin'? Or should we just leave things as they are, relatively unattractive to the untrained eye?

[hbhallett]

Trailer owners evicted
In November 2000, the Indians gave Booth and 40 other trailer owners at Red Rooster tribal eviction notices, even though they didn't have a California court order to evict anybody except Booth. "The tribe showed up with four carloads of CRIT tribal police, four carloads of Riverside County sheriff's deputies and a federal BIA investigator who told me, 'You're out of here'," Booth said.
Riverside County Assistant Sheriff Gayle Janes said his officers were at Red Rooster in November 2000 to keep the peace -- not enforce the tribe's evictions. "Tensions were very high on both sides," he said. "I don't believe a tribal appeals process was ever offered to these people at all." Janes added: "It's like being in a separate country: If the tribal court evicts people, that's none of our business."
Then, on a rainy day the following January, about 20 trailers that hadn't been towed out or were cemented down -- including Booth's -- were bulldozed and set on fire, Booth said. The fiberglass rooster was found dangling upside down over the river.
Today, all that's left of Red Rooster is a row of rusting metal trailer beds and a massive mound of concrete, broken glass and debris: vacuum cleaner parts, a sneaker, a recliner, a rusty bike, a water heater.
"That was my income, my livelihood, my only home," said Booth, touring the wreckage. "It tore a lot of people apart. They were firemen, electricians, truck drivers. ... They'd water ski, fish, do their barbecuing, drink a little beer, relax. No dopers, no prison people, just good solid American people."
The Indians had lived on the river for centuries before the white man came and built the series of dams that ruined it, said Russell Welsh, the 70-year-old vice chairman of the 3,500-member reservation.
"Before the taming of the Colorado this reservation was a utopia, a paradise where you could gather herbs and basket-making material, fish and game," he said. "The river's been like a mother to us, and it's been abused, it's been polluted, everybody's fighting for it."
The Mohaves, largest of the four CRIT tribes, call themselves Aha Makavi, "People of the River," Welsh said. The west bank includes several of their sacred sites, he said.
Priscilla Eswonia, a Mohave elder, remembers swimming in the river alongside giant salmon when she was a girl. Her uncle, a Mohave deer singer, told her the Indians originally came from the Pacific Ocean. "Our creator put the river down here for us to live," Eswonia said. "That's how all our songs begin."
The tribe gets along fine with the many west bank tenants who abide by their leases, according to Welsh. But, he said, "There's some radicals that don't want to cooperate. I think we have every right to say 'yah-hey, get off my land.' "
"We don't want to fight those people, but they're trying to make us losers," he added.
Judge's ruling stuns residents
The west bank residents feel CRIT has an unfair monetary edge over them: The tribe gets $1 million a year from California casino tribes for being a "non-gaming tribe" in this state, yet operates the Blue Water Casino Resort on the east bank of the river, in Parker, Ariz. That may change soon, however. CRIT plans to build a casino on the California side of the river.
Some 400 west bank tenants joined forces and raised more than $300,000 to fight the Indians in court. Last fall, U.S. District Judge John Walter ruled that because the Indians have sovereign immunity he wouldn't even consider the legality of the evictions, or the tenants' claim that the Indians don't own the land.
The ruling stunned the residents. "It's unfair for the tribe to hide behind sovereign immunity to maintain control of property they don't own," said weekender Tim Moore, noting that a judge appointed by the U.S. Supreme Court had found in 1993 that the land belonged to California, not the tribe.
"If you took the (2002) federal ruling to its absurd extreme, the Colorado River Indian Tribes could erect a toll booth on the Golden Gate Bridge and could not be removed because they have sovereign immunity," said attorney Dennis Whittlesey, who represents the tenants. "If they can go one mile beyond reservation land claiming sovereignty, can't they go 500 miles? Where does it stop?"
Where sovereignty stops is being debated not just on the west bank, but in Congress. Sen. Dan Inouye, D-Hawaii, recently said Indian tribes at the least "should be as sovereign as any state in the union" and said he will push for a bill giving them control of all law enforcement on tribal lands.
Jacob Coin, a Hopi Indian who is director of the California Nations Indian Gaming Association, argues that tribes already are more sovereign than states, and always have been. "If you allowed even one state law to govern tribal lands, a huge chunk of tribal sovereignty would be destroyed. Our founding fathers said the United States didn't give them sovereignty, the Creator gave it to them."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[mike37]

**** the Indians

[Kilrtoy]

**** the Indians
I think a Famous general said that too,
I believe it was Custard

[mike37]

Originally posted by Kilrtoy
**** the Indians
I think a Famous general said that too,
I believe it was Custard isent custard a desert

[riverbound]

We took their land once.....lets do it again:D :D
Thank god for deeded land
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/681riverpics_031-med.jpg

[mmered8299]

I cant wait to roost those feather head, alcholic, no working, leachin bumbs. I'll cut across the wake and lay down a nice spray big enough to swamp their canoe!:D :D :D

[totenhosen]

That is why I would never buy/lease land on a Indian reservation or in Mexico.

[jackpunx]

This is freaking amazing... These guys evicted a whole group of people because they thought we were polluting the land.. Burned and dozed the land.. And left it just like that for almost 10 years now.. Its the ****ing mafia.. With all the money they get from the casinos.. They don’t even take care of their own people..
I might be out of left field on this one.. but it sounds like the Indians out there think we are there bitches.. And do stupid shit every now and then to prove it..

[mmered8299]

Soon they will be taking over the Marinas and then not allowing anybody on the their water.

[Mandelon]

Hate to say it, but it was a mistake giving them the river. :frown:
We should've taken Baja California back then too. :rolleyes:

[little rowe boat]

I would burn my shit to the ground before,I would let them just take it from me.:mad:

[Boatcop]

Forget about Public Law. Forget about due process. Forget about your "rights". When it comes to dealing with the Indians, you have no rights, no standing, and they can do whatever they want. There isn't a court in the land that has jurisdiction over leases between the Tribe and a non-Indian.
How do I know?
In October of 2000, my Mother entered into a lease and moved her store (Parker Office Supply/Hallmark) into the area at Moovalya Plaza, formerly occupied by the Casino. The lease clearly stated her square footage, and even showed a map of the area she leased. She paid her lease and all fees based on the square footage.
A new shopping center was going to be built across the highway, with Basha's, Sav-On Drugs and other small shops going in. The "Family Dollar Store" was set to take over the spot that Sav-On would vacate. Due to conflicts in the contracts that CRIT wouldn't sway on, the contractor, Basha's etc. dropped out, and the plan for the new center was put on hold.
The Plaza manager, realizing he could enter into more lucrative contract with Family Dollar, told my Mom on May 1st, 2002 that she had to give up almost half of her leased space and move her stuff out of that area by May 15th. The "stuff" included a kitchen area, that she remodeled on her own dime, their print shop, and all of their back stock and fixtures storage.
At 12:01 (midnight) on May 15th, he came in with a hired crew and moved all the aforementioned "stuff" from that area into the store aisles. She applied for a temporary restraining order, throught the Tribal Court to block them from taking over her lawfully leased space.
She went to the Tribal Council to get them to review the lease and make a determination. They declined because she had started legal action against the Tribe (The TRO), and directed that all the Department of the Tribes, including the Casino, stop doing business with her. (The Tribes made up more than 50% of her business.) They also "suggested" to individual Tribal Members that they don't buy from her.
Long story short: It took a year and 1/2 for the Tribal Appeals Court to decide that she had no standing to stop the Tribes from doing whatever they wanted regarding the lease. That was just for the TRO.
What this acomplished was put a business that had been in Parker for over 25 years into Bankruptcy. My Mom lost it all. Halmark pulled out, along with some other high-end gift suppliers. They had to move the store again. They lost their retirement, their Motorhome, and are now hocked up to their ass, just trying to keep the business going, in less space than they had when they started it in 1974.
So do not, for one minute, think that the Tribes can't do this, or can't do that. They will do whatever they please, whenever they please.
The Supreme Court Case they are waiting for is to decide if the land on the California Side is actually Reservation. It wasn't originally, but was "given" to them by the Secretary of the Interior, and not Congress. The Supreme Court will only decide if the disputed zone is actually Indian Trust Land or not.
If it IS decided that it's Indian Land, then any lease, agreement, contract, whatever, is worthless, since there's no way for the non-indian to enforce it.
All those with leases on the Res, be it in Blue Water Lagoon, Big River, Badenochs area, or the California leases south of Riverland, be forewarned. If they want that property, you're SOL. There's not a damn thing you can do.

[HighRoller]

Swimming next to the salmon! That's a good one!! F*&kin indians were so stoned on peyote they thought a carp was a salmon. I think in view of this story I'll no longer be staying at the Blew Water resort. Furthermore, I think the non-indian businesses that supply the casino should stop delivering onto "indian land". These fockers have had the best of both world for too long, living off of the whiter man's money that rolls into the casinos. Maybe they should live off their own coin for a while and see how they like it when their casino runs out of food and drink.

[Doug H.]

All i can say is WOW !!!!!! after Boatcops statement :eek:

[phuggit]

Exactly why i don't give the Indian casinos my business.
The Indian Police have been trying for years to be recognized as peace officers in California. They havn't succeeded yet, but as the tribes grease the palms of law makers in Sacramento with their newly found gambling money, I see a change a comin....

[randy77zt]

they all get monthly checks from the federal government on top of their gaming money.your tax dollars making fat indians fatter.

[Mohavekid]

You'd have to sue them in their tribal court, not the state court.
Guess who'd win.:(

[Seadog]

Try OK. No major tribal lands. They can basically buy a piece of property and then get a business that is immune from taxes and state regulations. They put other business out and take money from the state. They issue car tags for people that have a dubius claim to some long time ancestor that paid to get put on the indian rolls a hundred years ago. What really gripes my ass is this concept of the indian as enviromentalist. Most indians tribes were like the buffalo. They tore things up and then moved on.

[TRIMDOG]

A conquered nation still able to throw some serious weight around. Only in America. We ought to take those ****ers off the dole and put Hillary Clinton and Jesse Jackson on a reservation somewhere in B.F.E. ....... or at least tax the shit out of their frickin casinos. Seriously, boycott those casinos!

[burbanite]

In this state you are allowed to defend yourself, your family or your property by using any means of reasonable force. They bring four car loads of people I say that's a gang and start firing, seems like a suitably reasonable thing to me...

[hd&boatrider]

Originally posted by burbanite
In this state you are allowed to defend yourself, your family or your property by using any means of reasonable force. They bring four car loads of people I say that's a gang and start firing, seems like a suitably reasonable thing to me...
I think the problem is that you are actually on Indian land and not CA land :(

[mike37]

Any one that dose business whit the Indians are fools
Stop going to there casinos
Shit stupid Californians we let them have casinos it was suppose to get them off the dole
But just like all Calif. laws we got ****ed and the low rents won

[Cs19]

The area in debate is a very small area on the river. Like 15 miles. Its not all of blythe. We had a trailer in this part for over 15 years. We just recently got out of it because of the ****ing indians.That was my favorite place in the world.
Ive been to tribal court,not by choice, anyone who thinks they have a shot at winning against these ****s has another thing coming.Even the west bank home owners, they are all ganging up on the indians, that will only piss em off. The indians are uneduacted people who will retaliate when they get upset, even if they are ****ing themselves, they dont think about it or care.Retaliation is first.
Ive had more problems with these assholes then you can ever imagine. I cant even tell you how many times we would get a call from the locals out there saying eviction notices have been issued, come pick up your toys,your house is going to be leveled in 2 days, only for it to be a false alarm, its happening again right now out there, im just glad we are not going through it again.
The only way to be safe from this type of shit is to be in a resort like twin palms,aha quin or water wheel. They pay the indians and your place isnt going anywhere.Expect to pay big bucks there too.
I hope it works out for the West bank homeowners.I dont want them to have to go through what I did. Its no fun.

[Boatcop]

Don't get me wrong on this issue. It's not that I don't think Native Americans don't deserve a lot of things they get now, and are all bad people. Matter of fact, my wife, kids and grandkids are all registered with the Cherokee Nation.
My beef is with THIS Tribe. CRIT is not a Tribe, so to speak. It is a mixture of Mohave, Navajo, Hopi, and Chemehuevi. The Navajo and Hopi are Native to Northeastern Arizona, in the 4 corners Region. Mohave were nomadic and never really had a land of their own.
The Chemehuevi were placed here after their (supposed) homeland was innundated when they flooded Lake Havasu after Parker Dam was built. When some Chemehuevi found out there was still part of their "reservation" above water, they went back and reclaimed it, even though they signed it over to the US Govt. for getting land here in Parker. They've already kicked a lot of people out of Havasu Lake Resort when they raised their lease payments, or just didn't renew the leases.
The individual CRIT tribe members pretty much hate the other tribes. Hopis don't like Navajo, Navajo don't like Mohave, and everybody hates the Chemehuevis.
My wife works at the Indian Hospital, and hear's all the stories. It's actually amusing at times. It's also sad with the amount of alcoholism, drug abuse, family violence, diabetes, suicide, illiteracy, etc. that's prevalent on Indian Reservations. Those troubles are a direct result of our Government "taking care" of them.
Do I think they deserve some accomodations for past wrongs? Well, my wife's great-grandmother (x2) walked to Oklahoma from Tennessee in the Trail of Tears. She was one of the lucky ones who survived. 2/3 of the Cherokees, Choctaw, Creek and Chickasaw weren't so lucky. If that 7 year old didn't make it like so many others didn't, I wouldn't have the family I do now.
So, yes. They are owed something. We took their land, their culture and destroyed their very being. We made them into a ward of the Government. Indian Reservations are the only true form of socialism active in the US, and it's an obvious failure. If they can make it off the public dole through enterprises such as Casinos, land development, and any other legal means, more power to them. But as they begin to prop themselves up, we have to wean them off public money. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
As far as CRIT, their leaders are nothing but a bunch of crooks and thieves, who are only in it for themselves, at the sake of their own people. How much money have the CRIT Tribal members received from the Casino? $500.00. Yep. Five Hundred Dollars. And that was more than 5 years ago. They can't give any more to them because they mortgaged everything they had, including the Casino, Big River, Moovalya Plaza, Aha Quinn, Big River, etc. for 25 Million bucks to fund a doomed Gambling initiative in 2000.
But the leaders and their kids are all driving around in new cars, SUVs, have new homes, while the members live in run down trailers and project tracts.

[TRG]

is'nt the AVI up in laughlin, on reservation land?
if so...that is the new reason why im not going!.. yeah, thats it!

[Seadog]

This whole indian thing sucks. I have a guy working for me who is classified as indian and gets all sorts of freebies because some ancester bought or lied his way onto the indian rolls long ago. My wife and her sisters are 1/8 indian, but do not qualify because their grandfather would not keep the records of their heritage.
I have an uncle who is full-blood cherokee and several half-blood cousins, but the system is so screwed up, that I think it needs to be abolished. The majority of the indians are being screwed by crooks and their so called leadership.

[GBLASER]

Where is Paradise point at in Blythe

[burbanite]

Originally posted by hd&boatrider
I think the problem is that you are actually on Indian land and not CA land :(
True, but the trailer/house along with it's contents are mine regardless of whose land they are on and I will protect them as I see fit.

[boatnam2]

damm pretty good writing boatcop,i feel sorry for the many of indians that are screwed over by the few corupt,smarter indians that sell there people out to make a easy buck.reminds me of our goverment and the stock market.i wouldnt put money into a place along bad badnochs if my life depended on it.

[HARDIN18]

My whole family and I grew up going to the Red rooster. We burnt our trailer to the ground when they evicted us. Now the land just sits there looking like shit. F*CK the indians for taking that place from us. Kind of funny how they bitch about us taking there land then they turn around and do the same. Two wrongs don't make a right. F*cking hipocrats!

[RIPPINGNOLEGSKROKER]

The handwritting is on the wall. We are pretty much screwed. I have been on that stretch of river my whole life and it is about a week from over. This dispute over the river boundry has been around for over 100 years. This last fight has been going on for 12years I think. The Westbank homeowners assoc. has tried everything they could, including sueing Riverside county for enforecment issues of Unlawful tresspass. Desparate time call for desparate measures. When the 9th district made a judgemant a few years ago, Havasu residents Wendt and Colburn found out the swift action the Indians can take, they were gone. I feel like they are taking part of my heritage. I,ve seen the floods, watched a prime Alfalfa field turn to a dust bowl, Drank my first beer with my dad, etc...No widlife my foot,Mule deer,snakes,quail, dove, geese,tortoise,and if you like carp your in luck. Between CRIT booting us off the land and Boxer and Feinstein trying to close the desert what the **** are we to do. I guess we should sit at home and play video games and waste time on the internet, or watch tabloid TV. The poor indians is BS, Crit sure loves to fly their new helicopter up and down the river. They are probably scoping out the prime houses that they are going to live in. Some people will get to stay but a year to year lease prepaid one year advance is going to run $150-200 bucks a front foot. No Thank you. I would love to burn the place but I think it is written that if you do burn it the indians can charge you clean up. Sorry about the rant. Late. I hope they build another casino because that stretch of river does not have enough water for all the 25-40 foot ocean boats everyone has to have right now. POISON the Well, oldest trick in the book

[Essex502]

Since the Indians, at their convenience, invoke "Tribal Sovereignity" when it pleases them maybe we as citizens of the United States should invoke our rights:
1) Erecting a wall around those Sovereign Nations that are enclosed by U.S. territory so we don't have an invasion from a foreign land.
2) Close and barricade any roads leading to such enclosed nations.
3) Require passports and visas to be issued by the State Department to any Sovereign Nation citizen who wishes to visit the United States.
4) Treat any such person from these Sovereign Nations who do not have proper documentation, i.e. visa, as an undocumented, illegal alien and immediately deport them.
5) Refuse any state or federal funds or services to those people that are citizens of these Sovereign Nations.
6) Allow all interested parties such as non-Indian racetracks to have casino gambling including slot machines. Why worry what goes on in a foreign land, right? So we take away any benefit of U.S. citizens from going into the Sovereign Nations.
7) And if the above doesn't wake those pesky Indians up then treat them as we treated Saddam Hussein! Invade, take what we want and and tell them tough sh!t.
If effect, treat the Indians who wish to not participate fully with the laws or the State or Federal government of the United States as foreign nationals just like we do with any other country.
They cannot have their "cake" and eat it too. They are either U.S. Citizens bound by U.S. law or they are not! Choose!

[Essex502]

Originally posted by BoatCop
Don't get me wrong on this issue. It's not that I don't think Native Americans don't deserve a lot of things they get now, and are all bad people. Matter of fact, my wife, kids and grandkids are all registered with the Cherokee Nation.
My beef is with THIS Tribe. CRIT is not a Tribe, so to speak. It is a mixture of Mohave, Navajo, Hopi, and Chemehuevi. The Navajo and Hopi are Native to Northeastern Arizona, in the 4 corners Region. Mohave were nomadic and never really had a land of their own.
The Chemehuevi were placed here after their (supposed) homeland was innundated when they flooded Lake Havasu after Parker Dam was built. When some Chemehuevi found out there was still part of their "reservation" above water, they went back and reclaimed it, even though they signed it over to the US Govt. for getting land here in Parker. They've already kicked a lot of people out of Havasu Lake Resort when they raised their lease payments, or just didn't renew the leases.
The individual CRIT tribe members pretty much hate the other tribes. Hopis don't like Navajo, Navajo don't like Mohave, and everybody hates the Chemehuevis.
My wife works at the Indian Hospital, and hear's all the stories. It's actually amusing at times. It's also sad with the amount of alcoholism, drug abuse, family violence, diabetes, suicide, illiteracy, etc. that's prevalent on Indian Reservations. Those troubles are a direct result of our Government "taking care" of them.
Do I think they deserve some accomodations for past wrongs? Well, my wife's great-grandmother (x2) walked to Oklahoma from Tennessee in the Trail of Tears. She was one of the lucky ones who survived. 2/3 of the Cherokees, Choctaw, Creek and Chickasaw weren't so lucky. If that 7 year old didn't make it like so many others didn't, I wouldn't have the family I do now.
So, yes. They are owed something. We took their land, their culture and destroyed their very being. We made them into a ward of the Government. Indian Reservations are the only true form of socialism active in the US, and it's an obvious failure. If they can make it off the public dole through enterprises such as Casinos, land development, and any other legal means, more power to them. But as they begin to prop themselves up, we have to wean them off public money. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon.
As far as CRIT, their leaders are nothing but a bunch of crooks and thieves, who are only in it for themselves, at the sake of their own people. How much money have the CRIT Tribal members received from the Casino? $500.00. Yep. Five Hundred Dollars. And that was more than 5 years ago. They can't give any more to them because they mortgaged everything they had, including the Casino, Big River, Moovalya Plaza, Aha Quinn, Big River, etc. for 25 Million bucks to fund a doomed Gambling initiative in 2000.
But the leaders and their kids are all driving around in new cars, SUVs, have new homes, while the members live in run down trailers and project tracts.
When do we stop having to "owe them something"? Now the descendents of slaves want reparations. Do we owe them too? All through history, one race or people expanded to another place and took land. Where does it stop with the "we owe them"?
Racial Quotas?
Reparations?
Outright gifts?
Preferential treatment towards gambling?
Where?

[MsDrmr]

I can appreicate all you are saying, one thing to take into consideration is that face that now the Indians are getting screwd also. If you get the LA times paper, you should have read the article where a man born to the owner of one of the casinos in palm springs is being voted out of his share of the money because his mom left the tribe to live elsewhere. He has been running the casino for some time and has been getting $10,000 often as an indian that now is being taken away. I really believe that Greed has taken over. The Indians have been given free land and now free money all supported by us. If you don't like the fact that they want to control the land thats theirs dont support the casinos that they get thier money from.....Just my .02
Sorry if this offends anyone

[jackpunx]

I think everybody on the board agrees that there are a lot of Indians screwing their own people. Its deffinatly personalities before princapals when it should be the opposite. I’m not one to say that it doesn’t happen in our world. But they have been big on separating their world from ours unless it has anything to do with free money. Its sad.
To me its like welfare. You can only help someone so much.. It seems like we have helped them to death. I don’t support the Indian casinos and don’t like the idea that I pay into this BS. But they have someone by the balls and it seems like it will always be this way. Like I said before.. The CRIT is like the mafia.. Its all about control and only the people on top are reaping the benefits.

[Essex502]

Originally posted by mrsdrmr
I can appreicate all you are saying, one thing to take into consideration is that face that now the Indians are getting screwd also. If you get the LA times paper, you should have read the article where a man born to the owner of one of the casinos in palm springs is being voted out of his share of the money because his mom left the tribe to live elsewhere. He has been running the casino for some time and has been getting $10,000 often as an indian that now is being taken away. I really believe that Greed has taken over. The Indians have been given free land and now free money all supported by us. If you don't like the fact that they want to control the land thats theirs dont support the casinos that they get thier money from.....Just my .02
Sorry if this offends anyone
I do, in fact, read the L.A. Times and am very familiar with the article. The man's ancestor is accused of moving off of the reservation when times were bad and the tribal council is now claiming by doing so she "renounced" her membership in the tribe. I also remember that what is at stake is the members participation in the gambling profit's windfall - to the tune of $10,000 per month to each Pechanga tribe member. Now, if they're a Sovereign Nation I'll bet the tribe members aren't paying any taxes on that money either!
Pechanga 2 (http://www.latimes.com/la-me-pechanga16feb16,1,3554752.story)
Pechanga (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-pechanga18feb18,1,2221376.story)

[Essex502]

Originally posted by jackpunx
I think everybody on the board agrees that there are a lot of Indians screwing their own people. Its deffinatly personalities before princapals when it should be the opposite. I?m not one to say that it doesn?t happen in our world. But they have been big on separating their world from ours unless it has anything to do with free money. Its sad.
To me its like welfare. You can only help someone so much.. It seems like we have helped them to death. I don?t support the Indian casinos and don?t like the idea that I pay into this BS. But they have someone by the balls and it seems like it will always be this way. Like I said before.. The CRIT is like the mafia.. Its all about control and only the people on top are reaping the benefits.
We can change the "by the balls" approach the Indians have to the rest of the U.S. - treat them like we treat every other foreign country!

[Seadog]

In Oklahoma, the voters have voted down gambling several times, but the will of the people does not apply to anything they want to call 'indian land'.
Let me tell you about a people that lived long ago. Feared by their enemies, they own vast lands. They were the finest light horsemen that ever existed. Within hours they could assemble over a thousand riders to go into battle. One day, the leader of the land to the north of them asked them to attend some peace talks. They went to his his headquarters under the flag of truce and when they sat to eat, enemy soldiers jumped out from behind them and slaughtered all their leaders. With the leaders dead, the enemy attacked the people and drove them out of their lands or killed them.
The people were the clan Armstrong and the enemy was the Scots. Now based on what is going on with the indians, I should be able to go back and reclaim my ancestrial lands from Great Britain. Kick the bloody Scots out.
Instead of sitting around and dream of the ancient glories of my ancestors, my family moved to Ireland and then across the ocean to the Americas. We have fought in every war in the past 300 years (never could learn to get along). The idea of a living being owed me because of something that happened centuries ago, is the most repulsive carp I can think of. If you steal from me, I'll deal with it. If you stole from my father when he was young, it was his responsibility to deal with it.

[little rowe boat]

Burn your shit to the ground and gladly pay the clean up costs.It would be worth it so they could not move right into a turn key home.:mad:

[MsDrmr]

Originally posted by Essex502
I do, in fact, read the L.A. Times and am very familiar with the article. The man's ancestor is accused of moving off of the reservation when times were bad and the tribal council is now claiming by doing so she "renounced" her membership in the tribe. I also remember that what is at stake is the members participation in the gambling profit's windfall - to the tune of $10,000 per month to each Pechanga tribe member. Now, if they're a Sovereign Nation I'll bet the tribe members aren't paying any taxes on that money either!
Pechanga 2 (http://www.latimes.com/la-me-pechanga16feb16,1,3554752.story)
Pechanga (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-pechanga18feb18,1,2221376.story)
No they are not taxed on that money at all, I had a friend whos daughter is in the tribe, she gets close to $5,000.00 per month and no taxes taken out. I don't support the $ aspect of all of this, however, we took everything from them, and just like children, you give them $10.00 and they want $30.00 until they are older and then just want more and more until you decide to give nothing at all.....someday we will get to the point where we don't want to give any more and we don't put up this crap.

[Nubbs]

Originally posted by mike37
**** the Indians
That about says it all. Why can't anybody support themselves any more? It's about time the hand outs stopped.:mad:

[burbanite]

I still like my idea.

[MsDrmr]

Originally posted by burbanite
I still like my idea.
the problem with this is it seems to be the men with power are the problem, and the ones without can't gather an army big enough to override the authority.
It seems there is no victim here,(except those that lost their home) but more of a power struggle over who is bigger and better.

[Boatcop]

I understand that people are upset with what CRIT is doing, and rightfully so. But some statements here are a little off the wall.
The Indian Nations are sovereign. But it is the PEOPLE that are sovereign, not the land they are on. I think all Tribes would be happy if they would be left alone, by us and the US Government, IF they were given back what was forcefully, or fraudulently taken and/or swindled from them.
How would you like it if the Government came onto your property, destroyed or seized all you had, and moved you to a barren wasteland and were told that this is now where you must live? Instead of speaking and learning english, your kids were taken away to a special school and forced to speak some other foreign tongue? How would you like it if the Government held all your property, money, assets, etc. in trust, only giving to you what they thought was best for you? And that you had to get permission from them before you could do ANYTHING!
That is what life is and was like for the American Indian people. And it's not so ancient History. The Cherokees were put on rolls from 1898 - 1906 as a way of giving them plots of land in Oklahoma in order to disband the Tribe, and ensure that they do not continue as an organized Nation. The Western Cherokee Nation didn't catch on and re-form into a "Tribe" until the 1930s. Membership in the Tribe is now based on direct lineage to a member on those "rolls". The very rolls that were used to try and destroy the Cherokees, are now used to shore up it's enrollment, and guarantee their future.
There are people alive today that were placed on those rolls. So it's not anything like slavery that happened over 240 years ago. The dis-service our Government did to the Indians in this Country is less than 100 years ago, and in some cases within the last 30 years.
The Cherokees in Oklahoma do not have a Reservation. The 15 eastern Counties, which were originally set up for them as Reservation, and disbanded by the Dawes Rolls are now set up as "Indian Country", allowing them the same priveliges as if it were "Reservation". What property the Cherokees have now, they had to purchase.
Now imagine the Government taking your land, moving you to that barren wasteland and then making you pay for it?
What CRIT is doing is downright wrong, immoral, and unethical. But persecuting all Indians for trying to stand up for THEIR rights is just as wrong, immoral and unethical. The corrupt leadership of those tribes, created by our own government is where the blame lies. The people themselves are just a product of that corruption and the nanny state that the US Government has given them.
And just as a note, Indian income, incuding payouts to the members from Casino profits, is subject to Federal Income Tax. It is the State income tax the are exempt from, if that income came from within the Tribal boundary, and they lived within the Tribal Boundary.
My wife get's no benefits from being an enrolled Cherokee since she doesn't live within the Cherokee Nation Tribal boundaries. They only apply to Indians who live on the Reservation (or area) established for their own Tribe.
Think about what they had to endure over the last 200 years, and in some cases continung today, with their only crime being that they were here first. They are the way they are because WE made them that way.

[BUSTI]

BoatCop,
I am sensitive to your recent post on these matters and I agree with most of what you say...but its only half the truth. I agree with the explanation you provided on how many indians in fact the vast majority were mistreated as part of the expansion and creation of this country..that is a given. No arguement from me.
But the philosophical and editorial question is this: SO WHAT?
No where on this Globe is there now a nation of modern staure that owes its existence to anything but violent use of a clUb, a sword or gun! Thats how nations are formed. Look at history and show me one counry that is in our history books or a member of the United Nations today that was not created by violent upheaval or agression from an other foreign nation or by revolution violently from with in. The american Indian is no exception and neither is The United States of America!
Thank God for the good ole US of A or the Indians would have this continent in the same shape the indiginous Africans now face themselves in now! What is going on in the Congo would be happening here. Or worst yet the Indiams might have been conquered by the Russians or the Japenses...but they would have been conquered. It just slays me when minority peoples who have the greatest opportunity of any people in the history of the planet act as if they themselfes ( modern day indians today 2004) have been screwed by the creation of the greatest nation on Gods green earth. NOT ONE ****ING INDIAN ALIVE TODAY HAS EVER BEEN HUNTED BY THE CAVALRY AND SLAUGHTERED BY THE US ARMY!
These indians have more opportunity than white people in Europe or for that fact any other people in the world by virture of the fact the indians were born and live in the United States !
The indians have refused to assimilate into the American mainstream and thats their problem. Where are their leaders? Why aren't the indian leaders demanding excellence of their people and saying no shouting: GET YOUR ****ING LAZY ASSES OFF THE RESERVATION AND GO TO WORK. LEARN HOW TO COMPETE , SEND YOUR KIDS TO SCHOOL AND MAKE SOMETHING OF YOOR SELVES!
Aren't the indians just humiliated that immigrants with out citizen staus come here like from Jamaica or VietNam not speaking the language and make millionaires of themselves and their families and their sets the indian nations CRYING BOOHOO our abcestors got ****ed by the white man and we cant achieve any more than second class citizen stature in the greatest nation on the planet.
Yes I agree with you the government has crippled the indians and their movement by giving them reservation status with soverign nation previges. But the real reason the indians are in the fix they are in and why they so quickly screw their neighbors is because they honestly believ they are not us...regular good ol fashion Americans! Even the Cuban immigrant that escaped Castro has more in common with the average American the nmodern American Indian movement.
What it is is that the indians at CRIT lack personal values of decency, capitalism, hardworking ethic and a respect for property rights... B E C A U S E THE RESERVATION MENTALITY IS AN ANTIAMERICAN COLLECTIVE! WITH ITS LIKENING TO SOCIALIST RUSSIA AND FACIST ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Indian children on the reservation grow up with no regard for what has made ther reat of us great! That is that good ol Red, White , and Blue Capitalist values of Judeo Christian origins flow through our viens...whether they want to admitt it or not.
The indians want a return to their roots of living in the stone age and a return of their natural lands to roam free...yeah just like the ****ing third world peoples of the Congo. tell the idiot American Indian movement to go and see Africa first hand and then tell them to quit wanting to live in poverty in the dirt like cavemen...because thats where they would all live if left up to the indian leaders.
Except those that manage the Casinos they would be living in nice pads and driving Escalades!
I can say this as harshly as I do because I am of Indian and Mexican decent and thank the lord my father and mother saw the greatness of the American way and routinely said **** the indians and their movement its just about a few screwing most of the other indians by brainwashing them that all indians are victims!

[jackpunx]

Very well said.. Its amazing what I learn on this forum

[Mandelon]

You Go Busti!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[ROZ]

Reservation land in AZ is over 19,000,000 acres... About 2/3's the land on both California and Arizona along the Colorado between Mexico and the tristate area is Indian land...
http://www.uwec.edu/geography/Ivogeler/w188/i3a.gif
To the Indians: Evolve your community or get left behind and be forever a welfare union........ Don't blame your current misfortune on the American anglo population of today. 80% of us have no real connection to what happened 200 years ago... Get ver it and move on... History is just that, history...
Plus all of what Busti said... :D

[burbanite]

Hell, if you add all of that land together it looks to be about the same size as Indiana and Ohio, they should have given both of those to the Indians instead, no-one would have cared...

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by mike37
isent custard a desert
Yeah, Custard is a desert, Custer was worm food...

[cheech]

if they came up to me and told me to leave and they were taking what they want, the first one through the door is going to have a third eye! take all your stuff out and burn it to the ground. and say i don't know what happend. then stand on the outside of THERE LAND and say blow me!

[Essex502]

The Indians claim "their land" but what is "their land"? Weren't most if not all of the tribes nomadic - roaming wherever food was found? Is all of the United States "their land"? Didn't the European settlers bring technology and medicine to the Indians? Where would they be now? Squatting next to a campfire somewhere?
I apologize for seeming to be harsh but I am sick and tired of certain groups (ethnic or racial) coming forward with their hand out then claiming special rights as well. Choose which you want to be - integrated into the United States and participate in the culture that is present or stand outside and take no benefits from our country?

[coolchange]

Well I'll get into this too.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mike37
isent custard a desert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, Custard is a desert, Custer was worm food...
You sent Custard a desert? A whole desert?
Custard is a dessert.
Mojave is a desert.
Custer was... Oh hell, now I'm confused...

[91nordic29]

Originally posted by coolchange
Well I'll get into this too.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mike37
isent custard a desert
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, Custard is a desert, Custer was worm food...
You sent Custard a desert? A whole desert?
Custard is a dessert.
Mojave is a desert.
Custer was... Oh hell, now I'm confused...
ROFLMAO!:p :D :p :D

[RIPPINGNOLEGSKROKER]

Busti and Boatcop you both make great points. Sure the gov't can take my land but 1 of 2 things will happen, there will be a standoff, or they slap down emminent domain which would involve their checkbook. If it was to build an autobuan or bullet train to river I have no problem. Freedom of choice, do what you do for your own reasons and let other people do the same. I do not like the Native Americans (PC) but guess what, I got my ass handed to me at the Avi last weekend. I made the choice to go up there and get schooled and nobodyelse made it for me. Therefore I cannot bitch about the clinic they put on. Same as the Gov't, people sit back and bitch, but do you Vote?? A lot of people are looking for a handout, like they are owed something. This is America nobody owes you Shit. Can you really blame them for taking advantage of loopholes and laws that benefit themselves? I am bitter we are going to lose our/their land but we did what we could, We stuck to our guns and got hit with an arrow. Someone on this board says something about 'if life hands you lemons, say f-it I like lemons" I am going to Needles where the water is colder, the weather is hotter, the jet boat is just as slow and the beer is just as cold.

[91nordic29]

Originally posted by BUSTI
BoatCop,
"SEND YOUR KIDS TO SCHOOL AND MAKE SOMETHING OF YOOR SELVES!"
now that's funny right there, i don't care who you are!

[91nordic29]

"THERE LAND! "
somebody give me a red pen!:D

[MsDrmr]

Originally posted by Boatcop
I understand that people are upset with what CRIT is doing, and rightfully so. But some statements here are a little off the wall.
The Indian Nations are sovereign. But it is the PEOPLE that are sovereign, not the land they are on. I think all Tribes would be happy if they would be left alone, by us and the US Government, IF they were given back what was forcefully, or fraudulently taken and/or swindled from them.
How would you like it if the Government came onto your property, destroyed or seized all you had, and moved you to a barren wasteland and were told that this is now where you must live? Instead of speaking and learning english, your kids were taken away to a special school and forced to speak some other foreign tongue? How would you like it if the Government held all your property, money, assets, etc. in trust, only giving to you what they thought was best for you? And that you had to get permission from them before you could do ANYTHING!
That is what life is and was like for the American Indian people. And it's not so ancient History. The Cherokees were put on rolls from 1898 - 1906 as a way of giving them plots of land in Oklahoma in order to disband the Tribe, and ensure that they do not continue as an organized Nation. The Western Cherokee Nation didn't catch on and re-form into a "Tribe" until the 1930s. Membership in the Tribe is now based on direct lineage to a member on those "rolls". The very rolls that were used to try and destroy the Cherokees, are now used to shore up it's enrollment, and guarantee their future.
There are people alive today that were placed on those rolls. So it's not anything like slavery that happened over 240 years ago. The dis-service our Government did to the Indians in this Country is less than 100 years ago, and in some cases within the last 30 years.
The Cherokees in Oklahoma do not have a Reservation. The 15 eastern Counties, which were originally set up for them as Reservation, and disbanded by the Dawes Rolls are now set up as "Indian Country", allowing them the same priveliges as if it were "Reservation". What property the Cherokees have now, they had to purchase.
Now imagine the Government taking your land, moving you to that barren wasteland and then making you pay for it?
What CRIT is doing is downright wrong, immoral, and unethical. But persecuting all Indians for trying to stand up for THEIR rights is just as wrong, immoral and unethical. The corrupt leadership of those tribes, created by our own government is where the blame lies. The people themselves are just a product of that corruption and the nanny state that the US Government has given them.
And just as a note, Indian income, incuding payouts to the members from Casino profits, is subject to Federal Income Tax. It is the State income tax the are exempt from, if that income came from within the Tribal boundary, and they lived within the Tribal Boundary.
My wife get's no benefits from being an enrolled Cherokee since she doesn't live within the Cherokee Nation Tribal boundaries. They only apply to Indians who live on the Reservation (or area) established for their own Tribe.
Think about what they had to endure over the last 200 years, and in some cases continung today, with their only crime being that they were here first. They are the way they are because WE made them that way.
Being Indian myself lots of Cherokee in me, I do believe what you say is true, the way our gov. took the land was unacceptable. I do believe they have a right for what is theirs, however, I don't believe they should not be taxed. I believe they live on the land and they run a "business" they should be taxed. We buy land, we buy our homes our cars, and we pay tax. Californias are hit hard by our own Gov in business expenses and taxes, why are they spared.

[Seadog]

We can always find ways that the indians were screwed. What most people do not pay attention to is that there are many cases where the indians were savages or did the screwing. We use the term indian, but the reality is that there is a world of difference from tribe to tribe. The Cherokees soon became the equal to the whites because they embraced many of the same beliefs. The Apaches, on the other hand, were a cruel and uncivilized group that tortured their enemies for fun.
Fact one: The indians are not original to North America.
Fact two: Numerous tribes have vanished due to illness or more often to hostilities among tribes.
Fact three: You cannot reverse time. You cannot halt progress. The nomadic ways of every tribal nation in the world has suffered due to the compression of society.
Fact four: For the better part, most people have tried to treat indians fairly. If you compare how we treat minorities with other nations, we come out looking good.
Our problems with the indians is the same as with the blacks. In the 60's, we created the 'Great Society' to give homes and money to the ghettos, to elevate the blacks to a higher level of living. We did not give them jobs or make the handouts based on assumption of a level of responsibility. We have done the same with the indians in many cases, giving them something for nothing. It don't work. Now they have learned that they can take money from the whites by exploiting the loopholes in the law and courts, to get more money without really having to work for it.

[MsDrmr]

Okay, maybe I am niave however, I have a question,,,if the CRIT is the one causing all the problems, then why dont the Indians overthrow them. I don't understand why they are saying they are victims,,,I say if the Indians get together and work hard enough, they can pretty much banish the CRIT.....(Keep in mind, I did mention that I was niave on this subject)

[burbanite]

I've been screwed over before, (as I'm sure many of you have), but you don't see me making it my life's work to wallow in self pity or encouraging my descendants to do the same.

[flat broke]

Originally posted by Boatcop
I understand that people are upset with what CRIT is doing, and rightfully so. But some statements here are a little off the wall.
The Indian Nations are sovereign. But it is the PEOPLE that are sovereign, not the land they are on. I think all Tribes would be happy if they would be left alone, by us and the US Government, IF they were given back what was forcefully, or fraudulently taken and/or swindled from them.
How would you like it if the Government came onto your property, destroyed or seized all you had, and moved you to a barren wasteland and were told that this is now where you must live? Instead of speaking and learning english, your kids were taken away to a special school and forced to speak some other foreign tongue? How would you like it if the Government held all your property, money, assets, etc. in trust, only giving to you what they thought was best for you? And that you had to get permission from them before you could do ANYTHING!
That is what life is and was like for the American Indian people. And it's not so ancient History. The Cherokees were put on rolls from 1898 - 1906 as a way of giving them plots of land in Oklahoma in order to disband the Tribe, and ensure that they do not continue as an organized Nation. The Western Cherokee Nation didn't catch on and re-form into a "Tribe" until the 1930s. Membership in the Tribe is now based on direct lineage to a member on those "rolls". The very rolls that were used to try and destroy the Cherokees, are now used to shore up it's enrollment, and guarantee their future.
Now imagine the Government taking your land, moving you to that barren wasteland and then making you pay for it?
What CRIT is doing is downright wrong, immoral, and unethical. But persecuting all Indians for trying to stand up for THEIR rights is just as wrong, immoral and unethical. The corrupt leadership of those tribes, created by our own government is where the blame lies. The people themselves are just a product of that corruption and the nanny state that the US Government has given them.
Think about what they had to endure over the last 200 years, and in some cases continung today, with their only crime being that they were here first. They are the way they are because WE made them that way.
Alan,
Not a personal attack, but rather a historical perspective. As Busti eloquently pointed out, the expansion of every empire on earth has come at a cost of some misfortune for those that are living in the lands at the time of siezure by foreign interests.
In response to your questions about how I would feel, or what I would do if the government seized my land and assets, or kidnaped my children. The answer is very simple, a lot of people would have died trying to come through my door. It is the right of every person to protect their interests to whatever level they feel is needed, the person just has to be comfortable with the consequences of his/her actions.
Should we be asking for reparations from the UK because they killed family members during the revolutionary war? Most people would say no, but what happened between the United States, and the indigenous peoples of North America isn't much different than the colonists turning on the British and going to war to protect what they felt was their way of life. The Native American's rose up against our expansion but their efforts failed. Was it a slaughter? arguably. Was the handling of the situation something that the United States government look back on with pride? No. But does that mean that we should forever be indebted to those who stood up for their beliefs and failed? Absolutely not. Reparations were made to the Native American's whether they liked the end result or not, they were made. The perpetual hand outs and welfare to the Native American Tribes has been proven to do nothing for restoring the strength of their heritage.
Things could have been a lot worse for the American Indians. They could have been left to be assimilated into the American Culture on their own. No reservation for refuge, no governmental assistance (regardless of how good or bad it was) for their children.
It is interesting that the United States has never fully understood the basis of making reparations, and as such has always been exploited by those who we have defeated in open war. In pre-American history, reparations were paid to conquered peoples after war as a way to placate them because the invading army may not have had the resources to quell perpetual guerilla warfare after the end of the official conflict. The money was paid to buy the cooperation of local officials to establish peace with their people. Long story short is that reparations orriginated as a means of buying peace after an invasion. They were never itended to be some moral justification or repayment for an invading nation's actions. The United States however, has always used reparations as a way of saying, "we're sorry". Christ, we even paid HUGE reparations and reconstructive efforts in Japan after we handed them their ass. Did we have cause to fear an uprising from them.... NO, but we doled out just the same.
I've gotten way off topic, but basically, yes I'm not proud of our our country handled affairs with the Native American peoples. But in the grand scheme of things they have been treated much kinder than many other defeated nations throught the history of man. Wether we handled the situation well or not, the fact remains that they were a conquered people, and all of their claims to their former possesions ended when they were conquered.
Chris

[Essex502]

Some good points but I think Seadog said it best:
Native Americans were NOT native to the land but came here via the strip of land between Asian and North American continents or so we were taught in school. Europeans came here via the east coast of the North America continent. At some point in history the groups met and fought and the "Native Americans" lost. So be it. If it would have been peaceful integration of cultures back then maybe the issues wouldn't be here today. But they weren't and they are, respectively. "To the victors go the spoils" is the saying and during those periods in history life was brutal. Did the Native Americans start the battles or did the white settlers? Who knows? I don't but let's end the special treatment for all groups and you'll see a more harmonious America.
Hell...the Vikings were probably here before anybody else. If they had left a settlement the Icelandic folk would want reparations.