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Pointerman
02-20-2004, 07:56 AM
Just heard that California has a new law proposed to regulate the amount of carbon monoxide emitted from boats. Apparently some kid died "teak surfing" (I can only guess he was riding on the swim platform) and now the law makers feel the need to protect us from the stupidity of this one family. :rolleyes:

My Man's Sportin' Wood
02-20-2004, 11:05 AM
I wish they would protect us from all of the idiots who rent lake lice and create a training class (perhaps even online) and issue licenses that can be revoked for doing stupid stuff like pulling three kids on a tube with no flag!:mad:

Essex502
02-20-2004, 11:08 AM
Where did you here this? There doesn't seem to be any information available which leads me to believe that it's your misunderstanding of the situation or it is in a very early discussion phase. Enlighten me.

life's a river
02-20-2004, 11:36 AM
I agree with you Mrs.SW. Other motorized vehicles need training, why not boats and pwc's? Wait til River Dave reads this topic.
LAR

Pointerman
02-20-2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Essex502
Where did you here this? There doesn't seem to be any information available which leads me to believe that it's your misunderstanding of the situation or it is in a very early discussion phase. Enlighten me.
Saw it on the morning news. They had some really sad father on TV talking about how he wish he would have known and then they started talking about creating a law to monitor the levels emitted by boats. This would be an absolutely ridiculous law. This is not an issue unless you stand there sucking up the fumes.

Essex502
02-20-2004, 11:58 AM
I think you're very premature on a law being on the books. There is already movement towards putting catalytic convertors on boats that will get there before a CO emission law will. Any internal combustion engine produces CO so to prevent it would be impossible. To lower CO is possible with the right technologies but to ban boats that produce CO...not bloody likely.

Sleek-Jet
02-20-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Pointerman
They had some really sad father on TV talking about how he wish he would have known and then they started talking about creating a law to monitor the levels emitted by boats.
I believe there are plenty of warnings out there about CO poisoning.
Tragic yes, but laws shouldn't be to protect the ignorant.

victorfb
02-20-2004, 12:07 PM
no facts here at all, but im betting it was the kid that was resting on the swim step while all the other boats were beached but idleing so the batteries wouldnt wear down with the 10 million jigawatt stereos playing. they were in the channel at havasu, and what i read was that the kid wasnt drunk. just passed out by all the carbon monoxide. fell in the water and drowned. definatly a tradgety, and for the most part you cant blame the youngster. if they want to make a law about it. id say ok with the no idleing in the channel like that.

HavasuDreamin'
02-20-2004, 12:11 PM
I think they should implement a law making it illegal for stupid people to go boating. :rolleyes:
Father said he wished he would have known. :mad: I would ask him if he ever drove around with his kids 12" off his back bumper? Sucks for the kid that dad is a moron. :rolleyes:
Oh yeah.........dad.........guess what..........there is prop back there too. Turns out that if you put your finger in there while it is spinning, most likely, you will have one less finger. :rolleyes:

HavasuDreamin'
02-20-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by victorfb
no facts here at all, but im betting it was the kid that was resting on the swim step while all the other boats were beached but idleing so the batteries wouldnt wear down with the 10 million jigawatt stereos playing. they were in the channel at havasu, and what i read was that the kid wasnt drunk. just passed out by all the carbon monoxide. fell in the water and drowned. definatly a tradgety, and for the most part you cant blame the youngster. if they want to make a law about it. id say ok with the no idleing in the channel like that.
Teak surfing (see first post) is where the kid holds on to the swim step and body surfs the boat wake while dad drives. The post topic did not make it seem as though it was a channel incident. :cool:

My Man's Sportin' Wood
02-20-2004, 12:43 PM
What an idiot, if that's what teak surfing is. What parent would let his child do that? Obviously one moron, probably others, since there is a name for the action. I think the dad should have gone to jail for child endangerment. He obviously is not smart enough to take proper care of his children.

Dribble
02-20-2004, 12:55 PM
Last summer at Folsom lake a 10 year old boy drowned while "teak surfing". They were in about 100 feet of water and the kid was not wearing a life vest. He passed out and sank to the bottom.
There was an article in the Sacramento Bee entitled "A Hidden Danger" describing the alleged CO problem. Several letters to the editor were published (including mine) which accurately stated that the kid's idiot father was to blame.
How many of you would let your kid hang on to the swim step (even in a V-drive boat) in 100 feet of water with no life vest and tow him across the lake?
The anti business people say that there should have been a warning label on the boat. If so, how's this?
WARNING: STUPID, RECKLESS, IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOR, MAY CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

RexRathburn
02-20-2004, 01:31 PM
I think they should make a law to prevent boat manufacturers from installing swim steps...that would take care of everything!!!:p No law will ever stop a jackass from being a jackass...it's their god given right.

Essex502
02-20-2004, 01:44 PM
The good thing is that Darwin was right...the dumb-ass peeps will die young and hopefully not breed more dumb-asses.

Pointerman
02-20-2004, 01:49 PM
This is the point I was trying to make. I guess if you have a v-drive and your kid is wearing a vest "teak surfing" might be safe if it weren't for the whole exhaust fumes thing. If he was wearing a vest he would just pass out, let go of the boat and his dad would have to fish him out of the water. No vest for any water ski type of activity is just plain stupid no matter how deep the water is.

HavasuDreamin'
02-20-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Pointerman
No vest for any water ski type of activity is just plain stupid no matter how deep the water is.
Well, and lets just remind the dumb people, that if the water isn't deep enough for a vest, you probably shouldn't be participating in water activities in that part of the lake. ;) :D The rocks on the bottom of the 3' deep area might hurt when you let go of the ski rope. :rolleyes: Perhaps they need to put stickers on water skis that advise not to be used in shallow waters. ;)

Boatcop
02-20-2004, 02:02 PM
If he was wearing a vest he would just pass out,
Wrong! The difference in inhaling a lethal dose of CO and an incapaciting dose of CO is miniscule. In high enough concentrations, like those found near the exhaust outlets of internal combustion engines, one breath is all it takes to be dead.
The only thing the PFD will do will keep the divers from having to look for his body.

572Daytona
02-20-2004, 02:17 PM
What they need is a law making unmuffled dry OT exhaust mandatory. The noise and the heat from the exhaust would be warning enough, no more worries about the "silent killer" carbon monoxide.

Pointerman
02-20-2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Boatcop
Wrong! The difference in inhaling a lethal dose of CO and an incapaciting dose of CO is miniscule. In high enough concentrations, like those found near the exhaust outlets of internal combustion engines, one breath is all it takes to be dead.
The only thing the PFD will do will keep the divers from having to look for his body.
Help me out here. Doesn't CO rob the brain of oxygen? If so, how could one breath cause death. Your blood doesn't instantly expel all of the oxygen it is carrying upon breathing CO. Why does it take people so long to die when doing the hose from the tail pipe thing. Those folks just fall asleep and eventually die from oxygen starvation.
In the situation laid out here the guy was holding onto the back of the boat. I would think he would eventually pass out and just let go of the boat. Provided he didn't end up face down in the water and drown before they could recover him (even then he could probably be rececitated) he should have recovered with little harm. I think what did this kid in was a lack of vest and the drowning.

Boatcop
02-20-2004, 04:45 PM
Carbon DIoxide robs the brain of oxygen, causing a person to lose consciousness.
Carbon MONoxide is a poison that not only displaces oxygen in the bloodstream, but also effects the transfer of oxygen to the brain, heart and lungs.
In the case of carbon DIoxide, when the person passes out, they will quickly recover, as CO2 is expelled and replaced by oxygen. Co2 is normally present in our bloodstream, and is accepted by our bodies as normal. When CO2 levels rise (like if we hold our breath till we turn blue and pass out) the brain shuts down, making us pass out so we can breathe normally and the condition passes in a very short time, usually less than a minute.
Carbon MONoxide is not a normal part of our bloodstream and the molecules bind with the hemoglobins in our blood, preventing oxygen transfer. Our bodies do not expell it rapidly like CO2. It stays in the system and continues to do damage even if we DO pass out.
In high enough CO concentrations, only one breath is all it takes to completely shut down all brain heart and lung function, causing death.
Treatment for even mild CO poisoning is 100% oxygen for times ranging from 2-4 hours for mild cases. Serious cases require a hyperbolic chamber to properly dispel the gas from the bloodstream.
OSHA declares that CO levels are hazardous to workers at 35 PPM x 8hrs in the air.
800 PPM will cause death after about 45 minutes.
1200 PPM will cause death in less than 5 minutes.
1800 PPM will cause death in less than 10 seconds.
Measurements of the area around the exhaust of houseboats on Lake Powell could not be read, since they pegged their detectors, which only read up to 2400 PPM.
ANY activity, near the stern of a running boat is exposing the person to dangerous levels of CO. Hanging on the swimstep, as in "teak surfing" is putting the person's face at the same level as the exhaust, causing them to breathe in deadly levels. Since most people do this with their head down, they take big, deep breaths giving them kind of a shotgun effect of the gas.
The guy may be able to pull his kid out of the water after he passes out, but the gas will still be effecting the kid, even if his face is above water. No amount of CPR will help him recover. Only swift application of 100% oxygen will give him a chance. And even then, there's a high likelyhood that complete recovery will not occur.
When, and if, I see someone dragging their kid behind a boat like that, the child will be rushed to the hospital, and the father will be rushed to jail for child endangerment.

cheech
02-20-2004, 05:07 PM
if some one is dumb enough to drag someone that is holding on to the rear of a boat should also have there boat taken away, go to jail (NO BAIL) and do 365 days in the can. lose there boat, and not aloud to register another one. if the person dies it is manslaughter. it looks like fun to a kid, the person operating the craft is responsible for knowing these thing's. and ad another 365 for being stupid.

Dribble
02-20-2004, 05:08 PM
You're right about the difference between CO and CO2. One thing I know for sure is that Calabria Boats did not cause that kid's death. His father did.

cheech
02-20-2004, 05:14 PM
your exactly right and the first thing these people are going to do is go after the boat builder ,because thats where the money is. and thats what there lawyer is going to tell this boy's parents. and the boy's father is going to be yelling the loudest. just to keep himself from being linched.

Dr. Eagle
02-20-2004, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Pointerman
Saw it on the morning news. They had some really sad father on TV talking about how he wish he would have known and then they started talking about creating a law to monitor the levels emitted by boats. This would be an absolutely ridiculous law. This is not an issue unless you stand there sucking up the fumes.
was that the guy whose kid died at Folsom Lake while Teak surfing?
:confused:

HighRoller
02-21-2004, 02:33 AM
Boatcop, kudos on your explanation of CO poisoning. I just went through hell trying to explain anoxia/hypoxia/ asphxiation to the public in a project I'm writing. My father was a 36 year veteran Captain of L.A. County fire and he had to bone up before advising me. He and a fellow veteran of the force are co owners of a houseboat and were part of the driving force behind the retrofitting of high-exit exhaust for generators on houseboats. They were motivated by the deaths of several children due to the buildup of CO under the notched/recessed transom of a houseboat. The CO WAS NOT from the engine, but from the generator while the boat was beached. The body's natural defense to increased CO levels is elevated respiration, but alcohol(a depressant) defeats this mechanism to a certain degree. Instead of feeling"out of breath", an intoxicated person may pass out without warnings or symptoms if exposed to dangerous CO levels. Is it any wonder that people have drowned in five feet of water in the channel?

spectratoad
02-21-2004, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by HavasuDreamin'
Teak surfing (see first post) is where the kid holds on to the swim step and body surfs the boat wake while dad drives. The post topic did not make it seem as though it was a channel incident. :cool:
Then the dad should be fined and banned from operating boats for life and never be allowed to reproduce again. I wouldn't even think of doing that with a jet, jet ski or anything. What a friggin' idiot. So now we all have to suffer for this dipsh*t pole smoker.:mad:

Bow Tie Omega
02-21-2004, 06:54 AM
Carbon Monoxide poisining is simply this.... Red blood cells, or more exact, hemoglobin is what oxygen binds itself to, to be carried through out the body to the tissues needing it. Carbon Monoxide , when inhaled binds to the hemoglobin where the oxygen normally would, only Carbon Monioxide does not release from the hemoglobin. So, as a person takes more and more breaths, there are fewer and fewer cells to carry oxygen. The person will start to breath faster, because the Central nervous system is telling the body it needs oxygen. As the person breathes faster, they take up more Carbon Monoxide, which eventually suffocates the patient due to Carbon Monoxide saturation. There is no magic pill and only one treatment known to help mild to moderate cases...Hyperbaric Chamber treatments within a 100% oxygen atmosphere. The increase in atmospheric pressure breaks the bind between carbon monoxide and hemoglobin. Not many hospitals have hyperbaric chambers, and even if they do, many times it only takes <5 minutes w/o oxygen before permanent tissue damage takes place, so not many people survive, and if they do usually it is with permanent tissue damage. More mild cases have more positive outcomes obviously.
So as most of you have said, a little common sense goes a long way when boating or doing anything with internal combustion vehicles. The moral of the story which I believe anyways......Do not let little kids or anyone for that matter hang on the the swim step and surf or drag behind or even be back there while the engine and pump/prop are turning.

Dr. Eagle
02-21-2004, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by spectratoad
Then the dad should be fined and banned from operating boats for life and never be allowed to reproduce again. I wouldn't even think of doing that with a jet, jet ski or anything. What a friggin' idiot. So now we all have to suffer for this dipsh*t pole smoker.:mad:
I agree. The guy whose kid died at Folsom Lake last year (I probably passed them in my boat just about the time it happened give or take 20 minutes) was at the launch ramp passing out fliers about what happened. I think his guilt translated into activism for an issue that common ****ing sense would fix. Who knows maybe the guy has a PhD and no goddamn horse sense.
I felt awful for the loss of such a young innocent child, but one has to ask, what the hell was the parent and boat operator thinking allowing that activity.
I don't care where the prop is on a direct drive boat, there is spinning machinery in the water. You don't get near that when it is operating. Let alone the obvious possibility of CO poisoning. The same thing could happen if you bumper surfed with a new car, but the road rash would probably deter most folks from attempting that. Might as well be sucking on the exhaust pipe!!!
I thought when I heard what had happened that the guy did not use common sense and was therefore negligent. If this is him pushing this, wow... now he is going to save the world from his lack of common sense?????:confused: :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dr. Eagle
02-21-2004, 08:22 PM
Damn duplicate post!!!!!!!!!