PDA

View Full Version : Hey Wes aka Froggystyle



hd&boatrider
05-12-2004, 03:30 PM
I am curious as to your take on what we might need to do next regarding this Iraq dilema we are in.

nodigg
05-12-2004, 03:33 PM
I aint Froggy but I say nuke the bleeing heart liberals and then we can get some support for our efforts and get this thing over with.

Froggystyle
05-12-2004, 04:34 PM
Good question. My personal answer is to stay the course. The very worst thing we can do right now is back out and leave that poor country headless. It will amount to an extremely resource-rich country that will be easily exploited by anyone with a cap gun. They have no real military, no state solidarity at this point and no national pride. To leave is to invite disaster of the worst magnatude.
I have very, very close freinds who have recently returned from Fallujah and Baghdad, and the recurring reply from all of them, universally is that we absolutely need to be there. They understand why we were there, and respect our country and our leadership for going and doing the right thing. I know of no returning soldier fresh from danger that is not voting for Bush this November, or feels in the slightest that we should cut our losses and leave. The work is too important.
I will spare you statistics, but the amount of country building and infrastructure that is currently going on over there is astounding. They are making civilization leaps in months that they haven't made in centuries. Electrical production is at it's maximum EVER level, prenatal and infant deaths are near non-existant right now. More schools are open, and teachers are higher paid than ever etc.... Good stuff all around. That country has never been better off than they are right now.
Total up how many cops die per day in America in the line of duty. Then add firefighters, paramedics, doctors, ambulance drivers, department of transportation, mall cops etc... and I think you will find the number to be pretty vast. These are a small part of the roles that our soldiers are playing over there right now. It is FACT that we generally lose more troops in training during times of peace than we have during this war.
Our soldiers have a tough job ahead of them. One they signed up for. One they are proud to do, and one that is worth the risk to them. No one is balking at all.
It has been said that it is impossible to defeat the American Military, but easy to defeat the American people.
My advice... Buckle down America. We are going to be there for a while. Politicians will say what they want to in the interest of getting elected, but there is nobody in any position to run for President in the next eight years that is going to actually consider pulling out. To do so would create a vacuum that could only be filled with garbage. Nobody wants that.
Support your troops, support your leaders and support democracy, here and abroad. When you stop believing that one of the fundamental responsibilities of being the biggest kid on your block is in protecting the less powerful, those who are unable to protect themselves, you have failed as a leader. The lesser powerful will see it as a weakness, and before too long you will become overwhelmed, and you will no longer be the biggest and the strongest. When you stop protecting the little guys, they will stop protecting you. There is no kid on the block big enough not to get his ass kicked by 5 smaller kids.
Probably more than you were looking for. If you were looking for a "nuke 'em" quote, I challenge you to be the guy who is responsible for killing millions of innocents. Put yourself in that situation... You can have that job. Kill 'em all? No way. That isn't what we are made of. We are Americans, not butchers.
I just hope we aren't made up of quitters though...

Rubths
05-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Nicely said Wes;)

Dribble
05-12-2004, 05:04 PM
Or to put it simply:
We started the job, we have to finish it. Now more than ever, the American people need to have the same courage and determination as the American Military. There are bound to be more setbacks. That is the nature of any difficult endeavor. Overcoming those setbacks is what makes us strong
No good has ever come out of us tucking tail and running.

BUSTI
05-12-2004, 05:22 PM
Wes great reply.........however staying the course is irrelevant if these animals achieve their ends and that is to use WMD's on American cities. In Iraq staying the course is the only true way to establish a culture of democracy as peacably as possible (if you can call this peacefully). But if and when these scum bags use WMD's on American soil with this President like Harry Truman President Bush will respond with our WMD's and innocents will get killed!
And like TRUMAN he won't be a butcher when he does ,he will just be the man in charge. Like "Harry" he will say the buck stops here and enough is enough.......... drop the bomb! GOOD BYE HIROSHIMA! OOPS I MEAN DAMASCUS!
And like Prsidents before him HE will realize his JOB IS TO SAVE AMERICAN INNOCENTS FIRST EVEN AT THE EXPENSE OF INNOCENTS IN ENEMY LANDS..........
AND IT WONT BE BUTCHERY IT WILL BE HIS CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY! AMERICA FIRST!
TAKING THAT JOB FOR ME WOULD BE EASY ALL THEY WOULD HAVE TO DO IS SHOW ME THE PICTURS/VIDEOS OF 19 YEAR OLD SECRETARIES JUMPING OUT FO 100 STORY BURNING BUILDINGS RATHER THAN TO CONTINUE THE SUFFERING OF BURNING MELTING FLESH BEING SCORCHED FROM THEIR BODIES. OR THE VIDEO OF THE DEAD PEOPLE FROM THE VX GAS CLOUD THAT THE TERRORISTS WOULD LIKE TO UNLEASH ON NEW YORK AS IT KILLS 100,000 PEOPLE.
NO PROBLEM FOR ME!!!!! AND YA KNOW IT WON'T BE ANY PROBLEM FOR PRESIDENT BUSH EITHER.....SAD ALBEIT TRUE BUT WITH OUT HESITATION HE WILL KILL'EM ALL!

Mandelon
05-12-2004, 05:52 PM
Wes makes sense. If the country is not set up and working well when we leave it will deteriorate to a point of anarchy....
Japan and Germany took years to resolve and make functional. Look what those two countries did for their respective regions. It took time, but we made them into economic powerhouses. And trading partners like none other.
Iraq can be the same, no doubt there were insurgents in France, Italy, Germany and Japan as well, before law was restored.
It sure would be nice if the media played up some of the positive things, instead of the daily death count.....which I do believe is reasonable given that there are over 100,000 people there. A certain number would be killed in car accidents, drug overdoses and accidents in any event, hostilities or not.
It sickens me that one drop on American blood is spilled to save some dirtbag towelhead, but remember the hundreds of thousands of bodies Saddam's regime left buried.....most are likely innocents who's only crime was to not be the same religion as Saddam.

rvrtoy
05-12-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Froggystyle
Good question. My personal answer is to stay the course. The very worst thing we can do right now is back out and leave that poor country headless. It will amount to an extremely resource-rich country that will be easily exploited by anyone with a cap gun. They have no real military, no state solidarity at this point and no national pride. To leave is to invite disaster of the worst magnatude.
I have very, very close freinds who have recently returned from Fallujah and Baghdad, and the recurring reply from all of them, universally is that we absolutely need to be there. They understand why we were there, and respect our country and our leadership for going and doing the right thing. I know of no returning soldier fresh from danger that is not voting for Bush this November, or feels in the slightest that we should cut our losses and leave. The work is too important.
I will spare you statistics, but the amount of country building and infrastructure that is currently going on over there is astounding. They are making civilization leaps in months that they haven't made in centuries. Electrical production is at it's maximum EVER level, prenatal and infant deaths are near non-existant right now. More schools are open, and teachers are higher paid than ever etc.... Good stuff all around. That country has never been better off than they are right now.
Total up how many cops die per day in America in the line of duty. Then add firefighters, paramedics, doctors, ambulance drivers, department of transportation, mall cops etc... and I think you will find the number to be pretty vast. These are a small part of the roles that our soldiers are playing over there right now. It is FACT that we generally lose more troops in training during times of peace than we have during this war.
Our soldiers have a tough job ahead of them. One they signed up for. One they are proud to do, and one that is worth the risk to them. No one is balking at all.
It has been said that it is impossible to defeat the American Military, but easy to defeat the American people.
My advice... Buckle down America. We are going to be there for a while. Politicians will say what they want to in the interest of getting elected, but there is nobody in any position to run for President in the next eight years that is going to actually consider pulling out. To do so would create a vacuum that could only be filled with garbage. Nobody wants that.
Support your troops, support your leaders and support democracy, here and abroad. When you stop believing that one of the fundamental responsibilities of being the biggest kid on your block is in protecting the less powerful, those who are unable to protect themselves, you have failed as a leader. The lesser powerful will see it as a weakness, and before too long you will become overwhelmed, and you will no longer be the biggest and the strongest. When you stop protecting the little guys, they will stop protecting you. There is no kid on the block big enough not to get his ass kicked by 5 smaller kids.
Probably more than you were looking for. If you were looking for a "nuke 'em" quote, I challenge you to be the guy who is responsible for killing millions of innocents. Put yourself in that situation... You can have that job. Kill 'em all? No way. That isn't what we are made of. We are Americans, not butchers.
I just hope we aren't made up of quitters though...
A very well thought out responce to a VERY real question on the front of most Americans minds.
Wes, I think most of us here would tend to agree with you on this subject. We must finish what we they started long before 9/11. I stand behind our troops and our President 100%.
Just becasue it has not been said enough here in this forum, THANK YOU!!!!! Thank you to all of you who have put your lives on the line for all of us Americans!!! Soldiers, civilians and, families of those soldiers and civilians alike. THANK YOU!!!!!
God Bless our troops, God bless our President and his staff and,God bless America!!!:D :D

hd&boatrider
05-12-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by rvrtoy
A very well thought out responce to a VERY real question on the front of most Americans minds.
Wes, I think most of us here would tend to agree with you on this subject. We must finish what we they started long before 9/11. I stand behind our troops and our President 100%.
Just becasue it has not been said enough here in this forum, THANK YOU!!!!! Thank you to all of you who have put your lives on the line for all of us Americans!!! Soldiers, civilians and, families of those soldiers and civilians alike. THANK YOU!!!!!
God Bless our troops, God bless our President and his staff and,God bless America!!!:D :D
My thoughts almost exactly. I was interested in Wes' opinion because of his military background and I have a great deal of respect for his opinion concerning these types of things. I myself grew up in a military family and understand the sacrafices that have been made for all Americans that are not even an afterthought to most. I believe in what and who we are and where we have come from. I am not a religous person but know the difference between right and wrong. Everyday politics interfere with military affairs but it is a necessary check of power. Gray area a lot of the times and a tough call. I hate it when I hear people over-simplify problems that have much deeper consequences than most realize. The premature leaving of Iraq would be one of them. Your statement here says it all Wes "It has been said that it is impossible to defeat the American Military, but easy to defeat the American people." The problem is when the politics tie the hands of the military to do what is necessary. Of course without checks/balances the pendulum could swing totally in the other direction.
My Father being a retired military man went out on July 4th 6 years ago. I thought it was very fitting for him to pass on our Independance Day. He went out with fireworks and all. He probably forgot what day it was and thought it was all for him....lol
One of my brothers who lives in San Diego yesterday helped with a golf tournament that provides support financially and emotionally to the spouses and families that have lost their husbands/wifes/children in combat. I was unable to attend but he escorted two widows out to dinner and hosted their visit out here. I am proud of the step my brother took to make a difference. Even if it was just for a day or two. we should all remember that families are being torn apart and maybe, just maybe there is something we can do in our own way no matter how small.
Thanks Wes for your past contribution to making us all a little safer even if we didn't realize is at the time :)

RiverToysJas
05-12-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Froggystyle
Good question.....
Wes, your reply is just awesome. I've actually read it a few times and it's changed my views of this whole thing. Really cool.
BTW, Not to change the subject, but shoot me a line when the first trident is out of the mold, I want to head down and see it all in person!!!
RTJas :D

Freak
05-13-2004, 03:17 AM
Good words Wes. I truly hope we stick it out, if we do not everyone is in trouble. It is unfortunate the news media gives the sense that the minority of bad people over there are the majority.

rivercrazy
05-13-2004, 08:15 AM
I think our biggest hurdle over there beyond military operations is the culture and educational base. Its going to be a long term and very uphill battle trying to install a new form of government and USA ideals on a culture that is still in the dark ages. Its like trying to make a illogically based situation logical. The government based religious doctrine breeds this situation.
Its going to be very hard......

Froggystyle
05-13-2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by rivercrazy
Its going to be very hard......
I don't know of one military member that doesn't look upon this statement with great resolve. Nothing worthwhile isn't.
Thanks for the good words guys. It is the easiest thing in the world to call for greater force, but who would you kill?
Keep in mind, Scott Helvenston, the civilian contractor (Blackwater Bodyguard) was a SEAL and associate of mine. He wasn't a close freind, but I have very close freinds who were close to Scotty. His was one of the burned, dismembered bodies hanging from the bridge in Fallujah. As I sat there looking at the newspaper front page showing this scene, with a bunch of smiling 13 year olds, I wondered which one, if I was there I would smoke first. The answer is none. Which kid do you kill? And what for? Did I see them do it? Can I prove which one did it? Likely, they are just hanging around for the festivities. Even more likely, they are hanging around because some ****ed up adult told them to get in the picture to show Americans how silly it is to try to combat an ancient culture. Put some kids in there to show how long of a battle it is going to be for you to change the hearts and minds of a whole nation. This is extending down several generations! Even the kids hate you! C'mon, back out now before more Americans die....
The people responsible are probably already dead. In any case, Scotty isn't coming back, and no amount of retribution or "eye for an eye" is going to make it better. All that makes is a bunch of murderers out of our guys. You think these guys want nightmares of killing innocent people?
WMD will absolutely, positively not be used by the US in the war against terrorism. Take that to the bank. They may be used by terrorists against us, and I can speak with unfortunately dire assuredness that they probably will be used against us, but we will not retaliate in kind. Why? Because a very small group of people is at war with the entire western civilization. These people, thanks to jackasses like Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat, Quadafi, and myriad other politically and empirically minded muslims are armed with the capacity at least to produce WMD. This small group of extremists does not represent the entire muslim nation, nor any city or country in particular. Think of the Middle East as a part of LA. South Central. Do we pull out because they hate cops? No way. Because most of them don't. The ones that do, probably don't stay on the streets too long. Do we nuke the area? C'mon....
At the end of WWII, we used nukes to stop the war, and prevent an imminent invasion of a country we were at war with. We needed to break the back of the country, or they were all going to fight to the death in the name of their emperor.
We walked into Iraq. Damn near uncontested. We didn't need to break the will of the people, they were clearing off the streets for us. The only people we needed, and still need to break or kill are the small pockets of extremeists who feel that we will eventually leave. These pockets are getting smaller, because every time you hear of a Marine dieing, there is the untold story of the 20 bad guys that platoon took out, the weapons captured, and the intel gained from the survivors. Marines are dieing because they are rooting out the bad guys, and going after them.
Let them do their jobs.

NashvilleBound
05-13-2004, 08:59 AM
Sorry for off topic.........
Wes, Roz said your sled is really nice and I should take a look at it in person. End of next week sometime? Let me know whats good.....
Jeff

Froggystyle
05-13-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by NashvilleBound
Sorry for off topic.........
Wes, Roz said your sled is really nice and I should take a look at it in person. End of next week sometime? Let me know whats good.....
Jeff
Any time. Not much to see right now though... it is all covered with a mold! We are flipping it on Monday, and working on the bottom mold.
Should have a boat in June...

Freak
05-13-2004, 10:11 AM
Just so there is no misunderstanding.
I support the War.
Kill all terrorists
Don't bring cameras in the prisons.
Find out all the facts don't listen to peoples opinions.
I have friends that are Muslims (OH NO! :eek!: ) and they are good people with family over there. They routinely visit Muslim internet forums and forward me stuff from time to time because they believe the News portrail of the current situation is terrible and they fear that us americans believe it.....go figure. :rolleyes:
Some sent.
My young cousin is a religious Sunni who goes to the mosque and listens to the cleric there every Friday and believes whatever he says, as he’s still young. My uncle always teased his son about this but never prohibited him from doing that. We were talking about different stuff; the kids’ needs, clerics, Americans and the increase in the average income of most Iraqis. My uncle has a somewhat unusual sense of humor that doesn't fit quite well in his somewhat religious family. He winked at me and turned to his son and asked him "What do you think of the Americans?" His son answered, "They are occupiers". "So you think we should fight them?" his father asked. Ibrahim said "No, but I don’t like them". My uncle said, pretending to change the subject "Do you like your new computer that no one shares with you?" "Yes of course dad". "Ok, are you satisfied with the satellite dish receiver we have or do you need a better one?" "This one is fine but I heard there’s a better one that gets more channels" "ok I’ll get you that next week". Then he said, "Is there anything else you’d like to have son?" "No dad I have all that I need". "Ok but how about a car?" Ibrahim was astounded and said "Really? a..a CAR.. for me!?". "Of course for you! I’m too old to drive now and my eyes are not that well and you are the older son. So whom else would it be for!?" "Oh, dad that will be great! When will that happen?" "Just finish your exams and you’ll have it". "I will dad". "Are you happy now son?" "Yes dad, sure I am!" "Then why do you hate the Americans you son of a bitch!? I couldn’t get you a bicycle a year ago, I could hardly feed you and your brothers and sisters. You didn’t know what an apple or a banana tasted like, I couldn’t buy you a damned Pepsi bottle except in occasions, and now you can have all that you wish, and a car of your own! Who do you think made that possible!?" My cousin’s face turned red and didn’t answer as we laughed and I said "What do you think Ibrahim?" He said, "Well it’s true but it’s our money. They are not giving us a charity" and I said "Of course it’s our money, so let’s forget the Billions of dollars they are giving to rebuild Iraq and the efforts they are making to cut down our debts and lets talk about our money. Why didn’t your father, I, my brothers and all the Iraqis have anything worth mentioning before the Americans came?" He said, "Because Saddam used it to buy weapons and build palaces". "There you have it Ibrahim, but Americans are not touching our money. Can you tell me who’s better; the ‘occupiers’ who are helping us or the ‘patriot’ who did all that you know to us?" He said in a faint voice "They are better than Saddam but still they are not Muslims". "So do you want them to be Muslims?" "I wish they were." "Will you fight them to that?" he said, "No, of course not. I don’t like fighting." We didn’t want to pressure and embarrass him further and didn’t go further, as he’s still young but he’s smart and good-natured and will get it soon.
The Iraq Net is setting a poll for the Iraqis to see whom would they preferre to be the coming president of Iraq. The results till now are interesting. you'll also find some news and links from Iraq there. "The poll was the latest in a series which this overwhelmingly Shia province has held in the past six weeks, and the results have been surprising. Seventeen towns have voted, and in almost every case secular independents and representatives of non-religious parties did better than the Islamists".
I've been visiting the BBC Arabic site in the last few days and I found a forum where people from many Arab countries –including Iraq- post their opinions about some hot topics, the main of those is Iraq and terrorism of course. I wasn't surprised to see that most Arabs (especially from Egypt, Palestine, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Syria) are forming one side of the debates while Iraqis and people from the rest of the gulf countries are taking the other side. But I was surprised when I found that the almost all the Iraqis who took part in the debates are on our side, maybe 95% of Iraqis expressed their rejection to the violent behavior of some Iraqis and condemned the terrorists attacks on both Iraqis and the coalition saying that the Arab world must stop supporting the terrorists and the thugs from inside Iraq. It's also surprising that many of those Iraqis live in areas that are recognized to have a public anti American attitude in general like A'adhamiya, Diyala and Najaf. I feel that those people are still afraid to voice their points of view in public in such hostile atmospheres but the internet is providing them freedom and safety to say whatever they believe in.
Here, I translated the posts made by Iraqis and for those who can read Arabic or have a way to translate web pages, here's the link.
"To put things clear, we should know who is supporting Sadr, they're a bunch of lost men who spent their lives serving in Saddam's army and the uneducated. They found no one else to support him. The solid truth is that those thugs need to be taught a lesson and this may be in various ways. Iraq must be saved from those men in any possible way".
Abdul Hussein – Hilla
"The martial show for the Mahdi army that Muqtada made is tearing apart the national unity and therefore Iraq needs the liberating forces to remain to prevent the country which was the origin of civilization from being ruled by fanatics who can see no far than their chins".
Saad Yaseen-Diyala.

Seadog
05-13-2004, 11:05 AM
As someone who went to Nam during what may be the worse period for our military, I know first hand the difference between what is 'reported' and what actually happened. My dad did two tours before I went. The first time, he was the only NCO to go do the initial recon for the riverine operations in the Delta. He was there during the first Tet offensive. To hear it, Tet was a great victory for the VC. The victory for them was how the media turned against our troops. Militarily, the first Tet offensive was a decisive example of a large scale surprise attack that was quickly defeated.
Wes has spoken very eloquent of what is needed. Victory is not the destruction of an enemy. We are not conquerers, but we are warriors. Our driving force is the sword of justice. True victory is when our enemy is our friend.

boatless
05-13-2004, 11:48 AM
Wes, Thanks for the info. I too knew of Scott Helvenston and remember the incident but I never knew he was involved. Highly motivated operator and a good man from what I know. Our thoughts and prayers go out to his friends and family.
Everyone needs to remember to support our troop, because for everyone in the reserves and National Guard its not over, myself included. And from the people in my unit that just came back - they are proud to serve and most importantly help those who didn't know how to help themselves.

NashvilleBound
05-13-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Froggystyle
Any time. Not much to see right now though... it is all covered with a mold! We are flipping it on Monday, and working on the bottom mold.
Should have a boat in June...
I can come at the end of May...but we are leaving San Diego for good on the 5th of June. Think it will be flipped by then?

BUSTI
05-13-2004, 01:31 PM
Seadog,
Recently I read a description of the war in Viet Nam as a war that the american military won but that it was a war that the American politicians quit . Using your Tet offensive example the author said that every major battle in Viet Nam the American military won! Yet you are right the media and left conspired to shape opinion against the war and our own troops, eventually achieving destruction of the governments will to continue the war and the result was we quit.
Do you believe that could happen again? It is possible and we are seeing the left and press trying to do it again.........in that sense they are right it is Viet Nam all over again.
Wes,
Although I agree with most of what you have posted I have to take issue with you with regard to never say never as it applies to nukes. True allies for America are for ever fleeting. With the exception of a few nations our true ally list is a small list. Great Britain is at the top off that very short list. Our current list of allies on the war on terror is a significant list of fine nations but that list will be fluid and subject to change very quickly. Take Spain as an example.
The most dangerous nation potentially to the US is what nation in your opinion? Saudi Arabi? Syria? Egypt? And why do you say that its just a small segment of the Arab/Muslim street that hates America? Their is no scientific data to support that notion. The entire muslim Arab world over whelmingly is anti-American.
Because no democracy exists in the muslim world in the middle east loyalties in that part of the world cannot be trusted very much.
IN MY OPINION AND IN THE OPINION OF MANY RESPECTED EXPERIENCED FORIEGN POLICY WATCHERS WORLD WIDE BELIEVe AS I DO THE MOST DANGEROUS COUNTRY POTENTIALLY TO THE US IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS........................
YUP OUR NOW ALLY OF PAKISTAN!
Why do ask because they are military dictatorship which controls the largest all muslim population in the region.
AND THEY HAVE NUKES! THE VAST MAJORITY OF PAKISTANI CITIZENS ARE ANTIAMERICAN! They are so because of our decades of supporting India. Musaref is in power only because of the US. It is no coincedent that Bin Ladden is hiding in Pakistan. The region is ripe with American hating muslims and they are not just a few people or fanatical few.
If we do not now with great swiftness democratize the middle east some day WMD's will be used here on American soil and or against our troops in the middle east. And pray to God that muslim fundamentalists never gain control of Pakistan!
If and and when that ever happens your prediction of WMDs never being used against the war on terror will be in error.
My moto in life is plan for the worst and work hard and hope for the best! Not preparing for the worst and hoping it will never happen here is what allowed 911 to happen! Never say never!
And SeaDog I hold heartly disagree with your assessment of what victory is in war. It is not how many friends we have left in the end of a military conflict....it is how little few of the enemy exists eg. total destruction of ones enemy. Japan and Germany are friendly today because we totallyy destroyed the facist cultures that existed in those countries during WW II.
And Wes we did not drop the bomb on Japan to stop them from invading the US as you previously posted .we nuked them for one purpose to save American lifes. Total destruction was shown to the Japanese as their only choice to total surrender and they chose surrender. Your anology about south central LA and cops doesn't wash with me. South central LA is America I could give a rip if Bahgdad is free of crime for that matter I could give a shit if they have muslim extemists I just dont want them flying our planes into our buildings any more and if it takes nukes to make that happen I don't care.
It is immoral for any President tolerate Americans jumping out of burning buildings as a consequence of not nuking innocents in Damascus! If total destruction of a muslim country would have saved 3000 lifes on 911 it is a moral and just trade!
I am objectivist whose highest moral regard is for individual rights. Primarily the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of my peaceful happiness for my me and my family. My view of the world is divided into right and wrong as many of you do. It is moral to hate.........
THATS RIGHT IT IS MORAL TO HATE! Provided you hate true evil. The muslims hate us because we are successful and for that reason only. Not because we are evil but because we believe in individual rights and liberty. Notice they are not blowing up huts of Indians in South America or the Amazon. Of course not the Indians pose no threat to their facist ways.
We on the other hand do so they hate us. Moral hate is good immoral hate is bad. Here is my point..... the Arabs hate Israel why/ Because they occupy Palestine and kill Palestinians. How phony they hate Israel because Israel is a beacon of freedom in the middle east. WHO DO YOU THINK HAS KILLED MORE pALESTINIANS? THE ARABS OR THE JEWS?
Jordan killed more Palestinians during their brief war in 1970 than Israel has killed during their entire occupation of Palestine but no body cares or reports that.
I LOVE GOOD AND I LOVE THE GOOD PEOPLE THAT SPREAD GOODNESS IN THIS WORLD!
I hate the people that were responsible for fyling planes in our buildings on 911. I hate the people that svered the head off Nick Berg! I hate the culture that breeds and makes these thugs possible! I hate them because they do evil things! I hate evil!
NOT to hate evil and the people that committ it or help create it.....IS TO EQUATE EVIL WITH GOOD AND THAT IS IMMORAL!
HATE EVIL AND TRY TO TOTALLY DESTROY IT WHERE EVER YOU FIND IT AND LOVE GOOD AND CHERISH IT WHERE EVER YOU FIND IT.

Froggystyle
05-13-2004, 04:03 PM
Ya know... I would love to take the time and answer that post line for line, but I am not going to.
A couple points I would like to clarify though.
A) I said we dropped the bomb to prevent an invasion. Not us getting invaded, but rather us invading Japan. Thousands of lives about to be down the drain. We dropped the bomb to keep that from happenning. The only way to stop Japan was to decapitate it, or at least have their leaders not wish to commit to the suicide of an entire nation. Who could fault them for surrendering either? They had no idea that a nuke existed, and they had no idea of how many we had, or what capacity we had to build them. They knew that they didn't have the technology though, and in the face of overwhelming firepower they surrendered. Good move.
B) Pakistan is a problem. Agreed. I think diplomacy needs to be run to end game in this one however....
C) We will never, ever, ever use nukes against a country during the war on terrorism. Terrorism is not a war in any classical sense. We will not use terrorism in this war either. You will not see Americans blowing up Iraqi buses, or driving car bombs into embasies. You will not see Americans hijacking planes, or taking hostages. The reason for this is that we have the capacity to do other, far more useful and dangerous things, and as a nation, we have the resolve to do these things. These are things like... oh... for example... invade a country. They lack this capacity, resolve, numbers and national unity.
Until we are threatened by a like or at least tactically viable force (such as the old Soviet Union, who at the time was considered for good reason to be a worthy adversary) we will not be using nukes. I have been in the military, and am privy enough to a lot of information with regard to "tactical" nukes to know that we will never use them. Period. There is no force in the world so strong that we would need nukes to dominate them.
D) World opinion is kind of against us. But not really. When put to the test, most dissenters would agree that Americans are the most generous group of people on the planet, who are doing what they think is humanitarian and correct. They may find us misguided, but not terrible people. It is easy to disagree when there is no gun to your head though.
And Muslim fundamentalists don't hate us because we are successful, they hate us because they find us to be immoral and godless heathens. They find our general worship of Christianity and such to be completely contrary to their own beliefs, and truly believe that we are the emergence of Satan on earth. The fact is, they actually believe this. It is not made up. If we were to lash out with vengeance, it would only be strengthened.
In northern Iraq, there are a group of people called the Kurds. They are an ancient people, far more ancient in lifestyle than the average Iraqi in fact. During operation "Restore Hope" in the early nineties, they saw our peacekeeping and humanitarian presence in Northern Iraq deplorable. They hated us there. There were attacks against us, and lots of small terrorist acts being committed in the refugee camps along the Turkish border. Our Special Forces were there for months. In those months, they did so much good it is unbelieveable. That was over 12 years ago. Today, there are MANY 11-13 year old Kurdish children running around with American middle names. Why? Because to honor the American servicemen who helped them stay alive and make it back to their villages safely, they named their children after them. Hearts and minds indeed.
I hate no one. It takes too much energy to hate. That which I despise, I make an effort to change. If you are not willing to make an effort to change, or to help the situation personally (and I mean doing more than hanging up a flag on your porch) than hating only makes the days longer. Nobody wearing a uniform in Iraq hates Iraqis. Don't you think that if anyone would know if we should hate them, they would? Most feel deeply sorry for them. Most want to protect them, and ALL of my freinds want to make sure that we give them the best shot at a better life than they have ever had. Coming back to America is extremely humbling for my freinds. They cannot believe what we complain about. I could not agree more.
The guy who cuts my hair is Iraqi. He escaped Iraq with his family in the 70's after Sadaam took power and started killing people. He has the deepest pro-American sentiments I have ever witnessed. He has liberals come in to get their hair cut complaining about things, as they often do. He stays out of it, as politics are generally bad for business, but I guess this one lady made referrence to George W. Bush as a ruthless dictator, who is only out to make Haliburton richer or some bullshit. From what I understand, my freind stopped cutting her hair, and very softly explained that as a young man, he had watched his neighbor get his head cut off for not feeling the same way as Sadaam about something. He softly explained that she has zero concept of what a dictator is.
Thank god, neither do we.

Seadog
05-13-2004, 05:16 PM
Wes, have you noticed how few combat vets really hate? There are a few who either cannot forgive and those who love hating, but for the most part, I have found most vets to have no desire to wish death on any who do not deserve it.
I don't know that I agree with you totally about the attitude of the fundamentalist muslims. I feel that they have been brainwashed by radical mullahs that have pressured the arab governments into allowing them control of the education process. By indoctrinating children, they have expanded what Hitler so aptly demonstrated with his 'wolfcubs'.
With the poverty level and dispair rampant in the Middle East, it is easy to convince children that their suffering is for noble reasons and that we are weak and decadent. The children of Iraq are more likely to befriend than those along the Afganistan/Pakistan border. What worries me is that we may have begun the war on terrorism too late.

Blown 472
05-13-2004, 05:59 PM
I don't know that I agree with you totally about the attitude of the fundamentalist muslims. I feel that they have been brainwashed by radical mullahs that have pressured the arab governments into allowing them control of the education process. By indoctrinating children, they have expanded what Hitler so aptly demonstrated with his 'wolfcubs'.
This is going on in Saudi Arabia but yet no attack on them, no bombs, nothing.
Btw, Wes, very well put.

CA Stu
05-13-2004, 06:26 PM
You mention Germany and Japan. There is a very fundamental difference between those two countries and the Middle East.
There has been some sort of conflict going on in the Middle East for 4000 years, and to think we are powerful enough to resolve it is arrogant and misguided, in my opinion.
I understood our mission to be to remove Saddam and his regime from power in order to deal with their immediate threat. To proactively protect ourselves and the rest of the world from a belligerent dictator that wielded the threat of nuclear/biological weapons that they undoubtedly had or were very close to producing.
I support "staying the course" wholeheartedly, but after June 30th, lets get out of Dodge.
I don't think it is a good idea to measure any other culture by our yardstick. Different cultures have different ways of life, and rather than forcing our morals and laws down their throat, I reckon we should let them be.
My question is where do we draw the line? Laws? Morals? Religion?
If other cultures want to chop people's hands off for stealing, I say let them. To our mindset, it's horrible and unthinkable. To other cultures, letting a woman show her face in public is horrible and unthinkable.
Until other nations are a threat to us or we are called upon by one of our allies, I say lets not be the world's policeman.
When we have to protect ourselves or our own interests, I'm all for doing it with as much vigor and determination as we can muster. Until then, let them have their culture and way of life, no matter our opinion.
Thanks
CA Stu

Froggystyle
05-13-2004, 06:40 PM
What a bummer... I just had the epic novel of posts and it got shitcanned somehow. Probably just as well for everyone I guess.
The short version is this...
Seadog writes that "With the poverty level and dispair rampant in the Middle East, it is easy to convince children that their suffering is for noble reasons and that we are weak and decadent. "
The problem is that as Americans, we are in general weak and decadent. In fact, we nearly define decadence as a way of life. This is shocking and grossly unsatisfactory to these people. We would have to completely re-program their entire thought processes to make any progress.
Screw that...
Here is what I would like to see them accomplish, in descending order.
A) The sincere desire to separate church and state, and understand why they are doing it.
B) The sincere desire to govern themselves.
C) The sincere desire to police themselves, and assist intelligence services in rooting out terrorist cells within their country, and paying well for information leading to capture of terrorists within their borders and outside. (Basically, I want them to become part of our solution and intelligence network towards ridding the world of state-sponsored terrorism.)
D) I would like to see them separate themselves from OPEC, and realize that they have just been given the ability to sell oil, and rebuild the country with it's proceeds. In exchange for their new found freedoms and liberty, I would like to see them make a decision to attempt to repay ONLY the nations who assembled as a coalition to free them, and sell oil at a discounted rate.
(Imagine the reactions by OPEC states when the United States, Japan, Great Britain, Spain among others only purchase Middle eastern oil from the only democratic nation in the region)
Reward Iraqis with greater autonomy and withdrawl of troops until we are only a minor presence in the region.

Seadog
05-14-2004, 05:35 AM
I think that I should have recognized that considering the part of the U.S. that Wes lives, that it is more decadent than the average part of the country. This is not a knock, but SoCal should not be considered the standard for this nation, despite its media devotion.
If we seem weak and decadent, it is because they cannot conceive free will, its vitues and its baggage. Yes, we have our share of jackasses. It seems the more mush the brains, the more the gravitation towards the media, politics or law as a career. I just happen to feel that in a true crisis, the stronger we become as a people and the true core of the country becomes evident.
The goal in the Middle East should not be to change their core beliefs, but to end the notion that they are in a holy war to destroy all other religions and races. Once they can conceive Americans as a nation of individuals, and we can do the same, the battle will be nearly won. The war on terrorism is going to be difficult because it is not Iraq or Afganistan that we are fighting, it is the 'holy warriors' coming from our allied nations like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen and the Phillipines. We have got to find a way to stop the growth of these groups, without harming the sovereignty of the nations. It will not be easy, but it is the only way I see to win the war.

Froggystyle
05-14-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Seadog
I think that I should have recognized that considering the part of the U.S. that Wes lives, that it is more decadent than the average part of the country. This is not a knock, but SoCal should not be considered the standard for this nation, despite its media devotion.
If we seem weak and decadent, it is because they cannot conceive free will, its vitues and its baggage. Yes, we have our share of jackasses. It seems the more mush the brains, the more the gravitation towards the media, politics or law as a career. I just happen to feel that in a true crisis, the stronger we become as a people and the true core of the country becomes evident.
The goal in the Middle East should not be to change their core beliefs, but to end the notion that they are in a holy war to destroy all other religions and races. Once they can conceive Americans as a nation of individuals, and we can do the same, the battle will be nearly won. The war on terrorism is going to be difficult because it is not Iraq or Afganistan that we are fighting, it is the 'holy warriors' coming from our allied nations like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen and the Phillipines. We have got to find a way to stop the growth of these groups, without harming the sovereignty of the nations. It will not be easy, but it is the only way I see to win the war.
Winner... best post of week.
I have little to add to this, only that the world's perception of an entire nation is based largely on the media that comes out of Southern California and New York.
I firmly believe that it is a small minority, say... 10% of Americans that drive our country, and create the image that the world sees (and often stereotypes) of American hard work, creativity, freedom, individuality, education, tolerance and financial stability. I think that 80% of the country is along for the ride, and would do little if anything to affect the outcome one way or the other, and when the cards were down would be just as happy ordering their Borscht in Russian or German instead of their Venti no-whip decaf mocha at 150 degrees with two cups in broken slang English. I do believe a large percentage of our population would sit idly by as tanks rolled down streets, as they are not used to taking actual action against anything, only complaining vocally about things that suck for them. I think the vast majority of Americans would not give their lives to protect our way of life, or even be happy with longer lines at the airport to protect our passengers (perfect example).
The last 10% is actually trying to torpedo America. They too believe that we are decadent, and actually wish to ally themselves with our enemies overseas and in our own country. They hide behind the freedoms that the first 10% provide, and prey upon our consciences and tolerance to be allowed to make their point.
That's the rub. Individual freedoms that we cherish protect these turds. While we wish that they would just go away, and go wherever they think they are not oppressed, they will not. The reason? They are scared to. They, like so many others feel that complaining and protesting is the American way, and they are just living the dream. They fancy themselves the real Americans, and put themselves in the same shoes as Benjamin Franklin, Paul Revere, George Washington and countless other American heros who bucked the system. The difference is, they were fighting for independence from a hugely oppressive country, and one that is thousands of miles away. These "patriots" are fighting to do away with it.
And the real bummer is, the world media sees a country divided. They only see the visible extreme ends of the spectrum. The "riders" in the middle have no voice (for good reason) and no identity on a world stage.
If we are actually going to be successful in this endeavor (beating terrorism) then we are going to need to get a larger percentage of the riders off of their asses and start pushing. Vote for shits sake. That is the least you can do. The VERY least you can do. And not just at the national level, but at the local government level.
If 10% more would become the Americans we wish we were, ones who make a difference in the right direction, we would double in effect. We would become a stronger nation for it, and the lemmings in the middle would follow the leader.
I am over it. I need to get back to work so I can create some damn jobs.

BUSTI
05-14-2004, 11:39 AM
Wes
We agree on more than you think. I don't hate people usually nor do I hate innocent people. I hate evil doers! And I hate the culture that breeds evil doers.
I don't want to change evil I want to destroy it. Evil hates good and it is naive to think that a plan to change evil that does not incorporate force will ever rid the world of it! In over 5000 years of recorded history evil doers on this planet have never just changed their minds to act different. Evil has only been removed in societies past by force!
Only Gahndi belived that evil could be changed by peaceful means. And he failed! The simple fact is that with out the pressure of WW II the British never would have left India in Gahndi's life and countless tens of thousands of Indians would have died under British tyranny.
You say you don't hate...........and on its face that sounds great! But if we had the time personnaly I think if you were intellectually honest with your self and me you would admitt that you hate plenty in this world. And Wes that isn't bad! Hating doesn't take time not hating evil does!
Wes, You are good man a very good man! And by your willingness to help people here in our boating community you have demonstrated that. With your service to our country you have demonstrated your willingness to sacrifice for others in a way than I can only imagine. And I am proud to call you a cyber friend. I qoute you often to others I know in conversations about things.
Maybe how I feel about the middle east can best be explained by reviewing the Nick Berg murder.
The antithesis of good is hate. And vica versa. To hate hatred (coupled to the act of toally detroying evil) and those that committ evil under its spell and or guise of muslim hating extremism is the only moral answer to its evil. If you truely love what is good then the moral opposite is to hate which is evil. The vile muderers that beheaded Berg can only be hated. Not just the act they committed but in every classical sense they are evil doers that only deserve our hate. To give them any other consideration is a moral insult to Nick Berg. If you had been there hiding in a closet with your weapon would you have not gunned down and totally destroyed the perps before they committed the act of beheading Berg? And lets say would you have been able to bomb the car caravan of murderers while they traveled through streets in the city area knowing that you may have killed some civilians as collateral damage?
The Israeliis do it all the time. We have killed innocents in an attempt to destroy the bad guys in our current conflict also. And its been a moral trade off. Now rase the stakes an lets say a weapons lab of mass destruction is operating in Syria and is already responsible for WMDs being unleashed on American cities. Would you honestly not seek to totally destroy the lab even though some innocents may die?
Of course you would. Your hatred towards those evil doers and the hate that they are exporting would motivate you to destroy it desoite it may kill innocents.
YUU CANNOT DESTROY EVIL WITH HARSH LANGUAGE NOR CAN YOU GET EVIL TO DECIDE TO ACT DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU ARE FRIENDLY YO IT OR TRY TO CHANGE ITS ENVIRONMENT FOR THE BETTER. HISTORY HAS A PROVEN TRACK RECORD THAT THE ONLY SUCCESSFUL WAY TO RID YOR SELF OF EVIL IS TO DETROY IT COMPLETELY.
You see these people seek to do evil because they have an absent of human values. The right to life and liberty is not important to them.
And please SeaDog don't fall in to the trap that these people are doing evil things or that they hate us because they are poor! Hell their alot of poor in this world that don't do evil things. The reason the muslims hate us is two fold: 1st they hate us yes you are right , because we are nonbelivers and we are immoral in their eyes. Yet you notice they aren't waging war on communist nations? Hindu nations in the region like India. They are nonbelivers. They hate Jews and Americans more than anything.
They killed Daniel Pearl in Pakistan because he was a Jew and an American (they slit his throat and filmed it also) not because he was a Wall Street Journal reporter and not because he was a nonbeliever but because he was a Jew and and American. Nick Berg was also a Jew and an American.
America is a beacon of freedom around the world and the state of Israel is a star in the middle east. They hate our freedom, they hate what is good in us! Like I said there are many other nonbelivers in this world to hate like Red China but who do they hate? They hate us and all that is good in us.....our freedon and our beliefe in individual rights. It is this freedom that is the biggest threat to them not communism and the like.
Yes the democratization of the middle east is a just cause and worth every bit of effort....but my friends history has told me to rid the world of this kind of hate total destruction is needed and may be the only answer!

Seadog
05-15-2004, 09:26 AM
Busti, I am not innocent enough to think that this is a poor vs rich thing, or any of that other garbage. Poverty and ignorance are breeding grounds. They are factors that 'evil' men exploit. If you teach a person to hate from an early age, if you feed them just the version of propaganda that you want them to hear, then you create a weapon that is extremely dangerous.
The problem is that this is a weapon that may or may not turn against you. When these people have an opportunity to realize the truth, they may change sides, or they may turn against their masters and be even worse.
I respectfully have to disagree with Wes on the 'for the ride' thing. I feel that the majority of Americans have a tolerance level that, once reached, creates a determined enemy to those who threaten our nation. Unfortunately, many of these people take our country for granted on a day-to-day basis. It has always been the truth throughout history that when the forces of law and order do their job well, it instills an overconfidence that becomes a gate for aggressors. 9/11 is a prime example as was Pearl Harbor.

Froggystyle
05-17-2004, 07:48 AM
It would take, as we have proven in the last two years, an event much, much more devastating to more people than either Pearl Harbor or th 9/11 to get America off of it's ass right now. 9/11 created a small ripple of national pride and unity. Less than a year later, the 9/11 hearings started and here we are two years later with full on politically and socio-economic based witchhunts in full effect. The middle group of Americans unfortunately is nearly 100% media influenced, and will follow whatever is perceived to be the rest of the pack. If there is dissention with regard to continuing our presence in Iraq, the left 10% will certainly make sure it makes the evening news because they are very, very aware of this dynamic.
America did a little bit of sleepwalking after 9/11, but they sure as hell didn't wake up.
The good news is, it looks to me like George Bush is going to get re-elected hopefully, and if he does, I feel that he has the balls to stay the course regardless of what a lethargic nation is mildly swayed to protest or be bent out of shape about.
I gotta get to work. Good thread though.