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View Full Version : Has anyone done this upgrade for the 496 HO yet???



Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 10:29 AM
i read about this company, and called the owner, he seemed really nice and advised that the package (heads, intake manifold and roller rockers) was worth about 525 hp on the 496 HO (with stock manifolds). Ray (the owner) further davised that the package would run for about $5k (much for for your money than the AZS&M kit) and the heads saved about 110lbs in the process.
any comments on the company? has anyone done this yet???
here is their website:
www.raylarengine.com

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 11:06 AM
OK, since no one seems to have used them, does this package seems feasable for 100+ hp, for 5 k that is pretty resonable for the HP.
has anyone done anything different to the 496 yet other than a blower?

dicudmore
05-27-2004, 12:56 PM
bump,
waiting for the same answer.....
all i've done with mine so far is add fuel :D

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 12:58 PM
hey D
what speed are you getting on your 29, i'm have only pulled about 67 (GPS) with fumes and an empty bladder.

rivercrazy
05-27-2004, 01:04 PM
I'm also curious about this upgrade. Seems somewhat reasonable on the HP vs. cost ratio. Whipple has some nice upgrade alternatives but they are pretty costly.

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 01:22 PM
the owner (Ray) was very nice to speak with. he really seems that he has done his homework on thsi package.
Ray advised that he is shipping the package to Whipple to do some ECU work on it, the cusrrent figures that i gave are with the stock CPU and 87 octane, since the heads raise the compresstion to 10-1 (ray said that they have many dyno runs completed with perfect reliability on a stock ecu and 87), that 91 octane and some tweaking to the ECU could only make it better.
Ray also advised that they are almost done with a cam that is smother than the factory merc truck cam (i didn't know there was any issues) and made more power (especially in the mid-range)
i like the sound of this package, just imagine using his forged pistons w/ a Whipple combo, that would really be a runner!

shadow
05-27-2004, 01:26 PM
Chris, did Ray mention anything about reprograming the ECU?
I'm sure with these mods it would have to be done.I know a guy who on the same automotive engines is installing higher volume,matched sets of injectors and doing the reprogram, but the problem with doing this in Marine application is the reprograming.everything is the same except the ECU and the connector.From what I understand if it's the standard GM connector it can be done easily. With the marine connector may be limited to people with the equipment and the auth to do so. Az speed and marine\ Whipple etc. I'm sure theres someone here that has more knoledge than me on this and can inform us?

shadow
05-27-2004, 01:28 PM
you just answered the ECU question.You were a step a head of me.
Thanks

Ivan Dan
05-27-2004, 01:29 PM
Hey Chris~
If you find anymore about this package could you please PM me with it. I am extremely interested in this as well. Are you guys able to get yours over about 4800 rpm? What RPM do you cruise at say heading to or from the sand bar?
On a great day with cooler conditions, light on petrol, and just my bro and I we have seen 70 on GPS but with the hotter weather the most i have seen is about 65/66 or so.
DAN

rivercrazy
05-27-2004, 01:36 PM
I have a 496HO and get 5150 rpm out of mine with both a Revolution 4 23P four blade and a 24P Bravo One four blade. This is fully trimmed out with a light load. 25 Shockwave Tremor closed bow.

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 01:47 PM
hey Ivan,
when i head out to the SB i usually run at about 4500 rpm (55+ mph) the boat rides really good at that speed and stay high on the water. i have noticed that my boat does not like trim (no more than 1 or 2 notches above the 1/2 way mark, it almost runs it's best in the middle).
i can run about 67 or so, your advantage is being able to pack air starting around 60, i just keep on plowin.
btw- i am running a 24p 4 blade at 5000rpm, with that kit, i should run a 26 easy.
anyone in for a group purchase???

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 01:50 PM
I think that there is enough interest out there that i should conact Ray and ask him to come onto the boards to field questions for you guys, he is located out in San Diego so a shop visit would be fun.

dicudmore
05-27-2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Chris Winn
hey D
what speed are you getting on your 29, i'm have only pulled about 67 (GPS) with fumes and an empty bladder.
Chris haven't run it much lower than 40 gallons or so on fuel and 5 ppl on the boat. 65 (speedo) at the zoo.....
63 @ Mohave tank full, ice chest full and 5-6 peeps
4800 RPM. 23P Revolution 4-blade

dicudmore
05-27-2004, 01:59 PM
shop visit sounds good to me.....
or maybe a "test" set-up in one of our boats :D

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 02:02 PM
a "test" set up is definatly in the works, if this power per $ is true than this kit will sell very well (and should run head to head with the "blue" motors.
if anyone is interested in a shop visit, i am in OC and coudl meet up for a caravan down south (we could all meet at the 91 and 15).
i am going to call him and invite them to the boards to talk with us.

vodkarocks
05-27-2004, 02:05 PM
If your talking about a group purchase I'm interested too. Did he tell you what they expect the top end projection to be after the upgrade?

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 02:08 PM
hello Vodka,
Ray did not give me any projection yet, he advised that he will let the dyno speak for itself on the kit, i thinkt hat a kit like that could put me in the mid 70's (that would be great)

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 02:10 PM
i just spoke to Ray, he was excited when i asked him to come online and answer questions directly to you guys. headvised that it would take a moment with him having to register and all.
i thought that it would be better heard from the man himself!

Ivan Dan
05-27-2004, 02:22 PM
Does anyone know where the rev limiter is set on the 496HO? I have tried trimming every which way and I can't get it over about 4800ish.

LASERRAY
05-27-2004, 02:31 PM
I've heard that you can gain 3-5 mph with thru-transom exaust! :D

rivercrazy
05-27-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Ivan Dan
Does anyone know where the rev limiter is set on the 496HO? I have tried trimming every which way and I can't get it over about 4800ish.
5,150 rpm. I've heard my rev limiter kick in at the level a few times too! :D
Check the accuracy of your tach. I had mine checked at the 100 hour service and it was dead on.

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 02:37 PM
laser, i heard the same thing too, but i want my money back on that option.
ivan- i trimed way up one day (too far i think) and i saw almost 5200 rpm at fuel cutoff, have you tried labbed props yet ?(i have not yet)

Krumbsnatcher
05-27-2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Ivan Dan
Does anyone know where the rev limiter is set on the 496HO? I have tried trimming every which way and I can't get it over about 4800ish.
Just out of curiosity, and that boat is pretty nice, what does the boat weigh wet?
Also what prop and size are you running?

Krumbsnatcher
05-27-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Chris Winn
laser, i heard the same thing too, but i want my money back on that option.
ivan- i trimed way up one day (too far i think) and i saw almost 5200 rpm at fuel cutoff, have you tried labbed props yet ?(i have now yet)
Chris,
I know a quickway to get that baby up to 5,600

dicudmore
05-27-2004, 02:48 PM
let me guess.....5600 before "re-entry"

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 02:58 PM
no,
i think that JJ is refering to the 800hp monster in his boat, he can pretty much idle past me. but i know where i can pick him up from when all hell breaks;)
JJ is the reason i have this bug, my wife is gonna kill me if she finds out what i spend on boat stuff

Raylar
05-27-2004, 03:22 PM
Hi Chris and fellow 496 owners:
This is my first visit to this ***boat Forums site. Thanks for the invite!
I am glad to see that so many boaters with 496 powered boats are as excited about our new products as we are. I thought I might try to answer some questions and give out some of my companies knowledge about the 496 engine and the modifications we have made and tested. First, we have been working with this engine for over two years now and our new products starting with the new aluminum BIGPOWER heads, our new BIGPOWER aluminum intake manifold and our new cam profile designs have been in testing for over a month now and we continue to test and tweek to help us develop and manufacture the finest quality, best performing parts available for this engine. I think I should try and address the ECU question first, since there is a lot of interest in how it affects the motors after any modifications. First, please understand that I do not purport to know all the answers nor are my opions or findings the last word on the subject! I will just try and call them as I see um and be honest about our findings. The Mercury ECU is a Motorola type PCM555 base computer that is developed and prepared by a divsion of Mercury Marine called Mototron Products. The software is developed to allow Mercury to set the computer up for their engine packages. Mercury writes the software for this computer to work on what is called volumetric efficiency tables. The engines use a MAP sensor(manifold pressure sensor also called manifold vacuum sensor), coolant temperature sensor, intake air temperture sensor and a timing sensor to determine how much fuel and timing the engine will receive at predetermined rpm intervals. These sensors are read by the computer every so many milleseconds to determine how volumetrically efficient the engine is at that rpm and based on that percentage of efficiency, say generally between 60 and 100%, the computer sets the pulse width for the injector and the spark timing advance to produce what should be close to the best settings for power that volumetric efficiency of the motor at that rpm and keep the engine burning at safe air/fuel ratios at high loads. The thing that seems to have most 496 owners questioning ECU reprogramming issues is that up to this point the only real equipment mods available for the 496 have been supercharger kits, Whipple, Pro, and Vortec etc. You need to remember that a supercharged engine raises the manifold pressure above 0 to a positive pressure of anywhere from 5 to 10 lbs of positive pressure, where-as a stock efi normally aspirated engine has a manifold negative pressure that runs between about -22 to 0 inches of mercury. This means the engine must have a different MAP sensor installed and a complete reprogram of the ECU is required to set up new VE tables that will allow the engine to run at positive manifold pressure levels at various rpms and change the spark timing accordingly. Our heads, manifolds and cams don't raise the manifold pressures above values in the Mercury ECU programming. With our products which leave the engine normally aspirated, the volumetric efficiency of the engine increases at almost all rpms, hence the stock ECU can add fuel via injector pulse settings and add or subtract timing at varoius rpm levels because our heads, manifold and cams help the engine breathe mix and burn fuel better than the stock heads, manifold and cams. This is what a volumetric efficiency table program is really about. As our Dyno runs on our test engines have shown, Mercury was somewhat generous with their fuel settings in their programming hence they run a little "fat" or rich, most likley set that way to keep customers from hurting their motors with lean fuel mixtures at high engine loads. This has shown on the dyno to be a benefit to our products power levels at certain points due to our increased fuel needs for increased power. I know this is somewhat technical but performance boaters need to know how these ECU's really work and why reprogramming is absolutely needed for a supercharger addition but is not as nearly important for addtions to a EFI normally aspirated 496 if the operating characteristics of the modified 496 engine can produce more power with the programmed table selections in the stock ECU. So far our dyno results indicate we can produce over 500HP without actual changes to the ECU programming. To go higher in Horsepower lets say in the 550HP+ area we suspect we will have to make some ECU programming changes to develop maximum power levels with good durability on valves and pistons. We will be working on this reprogramming possibility in our near future and I assure you if is needed or will help we will provide it. Sorry I got so wordy here but the explanation needs to be clear so as to get 496 owners feeling safe about modifying their engines within reasonable levels. Raylar won't be around to long if we sell products that damage our customers engines or don't produce the power levels we claim to deliver. Hope the information here will help clear the air and I will attempt to answer any valid questions you boaters throw our way! Thanks again!
Ray@Raylar;)

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 03:38 PM
thank you Ray,
that is why i wanted Ray to come onto HB and explain instead of me (i feel that they have really done their homework).
this might be a good way for those of us who do not want to spend 9k+ for a blower and risk fragging a motor, plus this should keep reliability somewhat in line.
who else is in line for one of these kits?

dicudmore
05-27-2004, 03:40 PM
thanks for the info Ray

Kachina26
05-27-2004, 03:43 PM
Ray,
First off thanks for coming on the boards and welcome. That is exactly the kind of information I want to hear, as a GM tech I want to know how the computer controls work, what sensors are used and how they are used. Thank you for the post and I will contiue to watch what you guys do and how things are panning out as my motor approaches the end of its warranty period;) .

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 03:46 PM
hey Kachina,
how are you doing? it was great to meet you at the heatwave, this guy really sounds like he has it togather, what would you say??
my warranty is up in Oct, but i think that might try this out sooner than that (possibly in end of june timeframe)
when are you headed out next?

Toomstone
05-27-2004, 03:52 PM
hey ray,
how would these modifications affect the sound of the 496HO. I really like the sound of it and wouldn't want it to change to much.

Kachina26
05-27-2004, 03:54 PM
Doing very well thanx. The kit sounds interesting, my warranty isn't up until the end of the year. By then maybe they will have a few more boats on the water with the kit. Working in the biz I do, I am not excited to be the first one on the block with the newest thing. I like to hang back and see how things pan out. Even GM with millions in R&D takes a little time to get all the kinks ironed out of its newest technology or even mods to its own technology. But don't let me scare you out of it, somebody has to be first.:D
I'll be out the weekend of June 11th, I want to check out Frenchies new ride.

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 04:00 PM
my next run for sure will be fathers day weekend, we have the Magic owners regatta that weekend as well.
i don't want to be THE 1st, hopefully someone else has to try it, but if they will stand by the motor if anything happens that is due to their changes i am game.
if thsi works, alot of people wont buy the blue motors (unless they plan to supercharge) and but this upgrade.
we will see..............

dicudmore
05-27-2004, 04:28 PM
ok how about 1 of you 2 try it out. the other try the az speed and marine dealio.....
and myself or some other "guinea pig" pick up a pro-charger....
we can compare notes :confused:
over a beer (read arrowhead) at the river :D

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 04:34 PM
hello Dicudmore,
i think that i will travel down to his shop and check things out, i feel comfortable i might just try the kit out, i anyone else feels like going we can set a time and date to do so.
pm me if you are interested

dicudmore
05-27-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Chris Winn
hello Dicudmore,
i think that i will travel down to his shop and check things out, i feel comfortable i might just try the kit out, i anyone else feels like going we can set a time and date to do so.
pm me if you are interested
that might just make for a good trip
-Dan

Toomstone
05-27-2004, 05:02 PM
does anyone know how much speed you would gain when you can hit 70 w/425hp and then you bump it up to 525hp on a magic deck boat?

shadow
05-27-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Toomstone
does anyone know how much speed you would gain when you can hit 70 w/425hp and then you bump it up to 525hp on a magic deck boat?
My guess would be right around 80 mph.

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 05:20 PM
i think that shadow is pretty accurate, the real key is that you woud achieve greater cruising MPH at lower RPM settings and a great mid range punch, that would be nice to cruise at 60MPH instaed of allmost having it wrapped out.
anyone for a roadtrip, i think that there are a few microbrewery's we could hit on the way down and back;)

Salty Cracker
05-27-2004, 05:23 PM
I was told by a tech that (as a general rule) after 70mph it takes about 13hp for every mph.
Don't know how true that is, never tested it......yet :D

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 05:28 PM
the 110lbs in weight savings (vs the stock iron heads) is worth a few HP as well (or 1/2 a passenger on ave)

Toomstone
05-27-2004, 05:33 PM
thanks shadow,
now can you tell me if a bravo one drive can handle that much horsepower?

dicudmore
05-27-2004, 05:42 PM
sure it can if you drive it right.....
if you like to nail it out of the hole, then its probably not for you

shadow
05-27-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Toomstone
thanks shadow,
now can you tell me if a bravo one drive can handle that much horsepower?
I'm with dicudmore on that.It can handle it but wont like being hammered on.

Toomstone
05-27-2004, 05:56 PM
i have some more question for you engine smart guys...
whats the most horsepower you seen put on a bravo one and it lasted a few years?
would hammering it and a backing off the throttle like in wakeboarding hurt the drive alot?
and is there anything in this kit that would change the sound of the boat greatly?

Chris Winn
05-27-2004, 06:06 PM
hello tombstone,
i think that if you are gentle the B1 will last just fine, i had the XR added to mine just in case;) when i had it built
as far as sound goes, i do not think that it will change much, the cam that Ray is developing is suppose to ide smoother than stock (who know what that will affect??)
i want to see some dyno results and make my judgement there.

shadow
05-27-2004, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Toomstone
i have some more question for you engine smart guys...
whats the most horsepower you seen put on a bravo one and it lasted a few years?
would hammering it and a backing off the throttle like in wakeboarding hurt the drive alot?
and is there anything in this kit that would change the sound of the boat greatly?
keep in mind I,m no expert here but my guess is you could comfortably put 500-550hp to a stock bravo drive and with regular maint,and not to much abuse I don't see why you couldn't get a good couple of seasons. As far as sound,without changing exhaust I wouldn't think there will be a lot of change.Maybe slightly healthier sounding.Pulling a wake board or skier won't hurt nothing.I've got 496ho with bravo one and drive the piss out of it.Regular maint and drive shower,no problems

Toomstone
05-27-2004, 06:17 PM
thanks again chris and shadow
hey chris im gunna be at the magic regatta too post a picture of you boat and ill see if i can find you there.
heres mine
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1531Picture_245-med.jpg

Raylar
05-27-2004, 06:59 PM
Hey Toomstone:
The sound of this engine is probably more dependant on the exhaust system on your boat than a horsepower increase in your engine. The engine seems to have a little louder roar at high rpms on the dyno but I don't believe you would see any real change in levels in the boat at most speeds and at the faster speeds the boat will achieve with more power the added wind noise would most likely cancel out any slight increase. Biggest change would probably be the big grin on your face! We don't want your boat to just make more noise, Raylar wants it to go faster!
We will have our heads on a Southern California boat in about two weeks and you guys will be able to get confirmation from the owner very soon.We don't want any "guinea Pigs" just a lot of happy boat owners.
Hey Chris:
If you call me next week I will set up a time for you to come by our dyno test site and actually see our parts in action. As for durability question we have made over 62 power pulls on the dyno to 5100 rpm loaded and we have not seen a single problem or part degredation on our heads, springs, valves, rocker arms, head bolts or head gaskets, These dyno pulls are just like 62 high speed all out speed runs on your boat. Think about that kind of use and you will see these are highly durable parts meant for serious trouble free performance use.
Thanks Again,
Ray at Raylar;) :)

shadow
05-27-2004, 07:10 PM
Raylar, Whats your opinion on the stock 496 lower end components, crank,connecting rods,pistons?Are they worthy of these upgrades and do you belive they will hold up for a considerable length of time.

Raylar
05-28-2004, 06:46 AM
Shadow
The bottom end on the stock 496 is pretty strong. The cast crank is nodular iron and is well made and strong enough for at least 550hp. The rods are forged with good rod bolts and should also be good for at leat 550 hp without mods. The pistons are hypereutectic cast with coated skirts and a pressed pin. They are probably the weaker of all the components if they are pressed with a supercharger. So far on the dyno we had 550hp pulls on them and they seem to be doing fine. I would not recommend taking them to much higher than that though. We have our forged Mahle pistons for this engine now and we know they will take at least 800 hp no problem. If you add our heads, cam and manifold you will be at about 550Hp on a 496HO and I would expect good engine life of about 500hrs + if your engine is in good shape now.
Hope this info helps,
Thanks,
Ray @ Raylar :) ;)

Chris Winn
05-28-2004, 07:07 AM
Hello Ray,
i am leaving for Texas today, but thsi next week i will give you a call and set up a time that we can get togather, i like what i see of this solution!.
i would not mind trying this out (being the 1st one around here) as long as you are confident that the package is sorted out right now and ready to go to work, with 550 hp and close to 500 hours of engine life is more than i could hope for (i only have 15hrs right now).
look forward to visiting with you, i will bring a camera (if you do not mind, this will allow us to share the visit with the ***boaters).
best regards,
chris

Chris Winn
05-28-2004, 07:22 AM
Hello Tombstone,
this is the newest picture that i have of the magic, thsi was taken by Kachina 26 at the spring heatwave
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/511/1284SpringHeatwave04_065-med.jpg
see you at the regatta, i just remembered that i need to send in my registration.

welk2party
05-28-2004, 07:35 AM
I will be watching this thread closely. If I had the coin for this I would be all over it.

Slider
05-28-2004, 07:42 AM
Does this only apply to the 496Ho or can this be an upgrade for the 496 375 hp motor too.

Chris Winn
05-28-2004, 08:37 AM
Hello slider,
i was looking at www.Offshoreonly.com and the Ray advised a person on there that it will bolt onto the 375hp also, you just dont get the total gain of hp over the HO.
i'm not certain, but wasn't the main differences the ECU and the cam? if these can be switched, then that could put you at the same HP an the HO

Toomstone
05-28-2004, 09:38 AM
beautiful boat chris, im looking forward to the regatta and meeting you. get as much info as i can on the kit. bye

Slider
05-28-2004, 11:37 AM
I think he said he was installing a new custom cam and the motors.MAYBE THE HP would be the same as the HO?.SOUNDS BETTER THAN A SUPERCHARGER

Dino
05-28-2004, 12:44 PM
There are alot of guys here that can give advise on how you can pull your heads off and have them machined with bigger valves, port matched, polished, planned etc.... Just add the proper cam, manifold, and exhaust and you can get some serious hp gains for less than 5k. There is a wealth of knowledge here. Just ask.
I think if you are going to pull the heads off, you should think about taking it a step further and replacing the pistons. Just incase you want future mods.
Thats just my .02

Slider
06-07-2004, 04:53 PM
want more info