GGB Mufflers can make you legal!

[vdriveride]

I contacted Graham at GGB Exhaust TechnologyÂ’s this last winter to see if he had any ideas on how to make my boat compliant with the new 2005 California boating noise law, but not completely choke the performance out of the motor. I explained to Graham that I was running a blown gas Howard runner bottom. The engine is a 468 BBC with a 6-71 Littlefield blower stepped up to 13% over. The engine also has Rewarder headers. The boat has a lot of lope at idle and a good deal of noise, the dB meter shows well over 100 dBÂ’s just at idle. I love the engine noise but some of the local lakes arenÂ’t very big fans of the noisy big block motor. My young kids have grown accustom to asking for their ear plugs when in the boat. Graham worked with me on different inserts in the collectors until we had the most decibel reduction, but still retained as much flow as possible for performance. The dB meter readings were showing that we had gained a lot of noise reduction but still needed to drop several more dBÂ’s to be legal with the new 2005 California boating noise law. Graham sent me out a beautiful set of polished stainless steel clamp on extension mufflers. (see picture) I attached mufflers to the headers and fired up the motor and the noise reduction was very noticeable! With no engine adjustments I was now within a couple of decibelÂ’s from being legal. All I need to do is bump the idle down a little and we will be compliant. ItÂ’s great to know that if I will be boating at a lake with strict noise restrictions I can add the extensions and not be hassled. It's great to know that there are people like Graham and many others here on the boards who really want to help...
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/6184IM000488-med.jpghttp://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/6184IM000490-med.jpg

[RiverDave]

You can hardly notice them in the picture.. :)
I do have to ask though, you said you just have to bump down the idle a little bit. What about the 4000 RPM @ 50' deal?
RD

[572Daytona]

How many RPM did you loose with those? Can you run water injection with them or do you have to run dry headers? thx.

[superdave013]

wait until you see the mufflers I've got cookin
Will be something you've never seen before. :)

[572Daytona]

Originally posted by superdave013
wait until you see the mufflers I've got cookin
Will be something you've never seen before. :)
You mean the hair dryers? They do make for nice albeit expensive mufflers. :wink:

[superdave013]

Originally posted by 572Daytona
You mean the hair dryers? They do make for nice albeit expensive mufflers. :wink:
No, I'm talking mufflers. The first ones will be clamp ons to work with exisiting tips.

[Essex502]

Remember that you cannot focus solely on the idle test even though that will be the most prevalent test that LE will perform since it is so easy. The 50' driveby test you will still fail in all likelihood. Very, very difficult to pass this one.

[vdriveride]

I do have to ask though, you said you just have to bump down the idle a little bit. What about the 4000 RPM @ 50' deal?
Here's my take. If I can get the boat in the water, pass the 88db test at the dock I will proably be good 90% of the time. I am hoping that as long as I am not creating a lot of attention by doing stupid things that they will leave me alone and focus on other real threats on the lake. Will it pass the 50' test, most likely not, but neither will most of the law enforcements current boats up here. I didn't focus on this, but I know Graham would work with any of you and try and help with your applications. Shoot him an email. www.ggb.ca
How many RPM did you loose with those? Can you run water injection with them or do you have to run dry headers? thx.
My headers have water to them with a standard ball tee valve and are only dry at idle. When I have the mufflers on, I don't plan on running full out, currently still a few good places to run where mufflers aren't an issue for that e ticket ride. No doubt though it will have a few hundred RPM lose on the top end with any muffler set up.

[Sleek-Jet]

What $$ range are we looking at here??

[dean51267]

I looked at them, was very disappointed, minimum $2000 for a twin engine boat, plus any extras and the install....
Someone else will come into the market and make a more affordable product, right now this one crazy over priced.
I will post a few other options as I find them, I have a very LOUD twin 454 Profile that needs to be quieted down

[Rexone]

Originally posted by dean51267
I looked at them, was very disappointed, minimum $2000 for a twin engine boat, plus any extras and the install....
Someone else will come into the market and make a more affordable product, right now this one crazy over priced.
I will post a few other options as I find them, I have a very LOUD twin 454 Profile that needs to be quieted down
Hang tight Dean, we will have your answer shortly. Not OT yet though. (http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=49469)
:)

[GGB]

As for the 50' test with vdriveride's boat, I would have to say that with the inserts and the clamp-ons it, it would pass.
All High Flow Louver mufflers can be run either totally wet or dry.
Dean, our Extreme mufflers are definately not cheap. Current pricing reflects the hand built quality, detail, and minimum numbers for each build run. As our orders increase and run numbers go up, future pricing will go down accordingly.
As for your twin 454 Profile one of the applications of High Flow Louver mufflers will work awesome on those engines. Prcing on 4" inserts are 289.00/pair which includes shipping.
Here's a look at whats going on today. Engine below cranked out over 1300 HP last year on the dyno and with some new changes, should go well over 1400HP this time. Currently we have dyno tested and posted muffler testing results from 550HP and 800HP engines, but nothing like this. Numbers should be in by the end of the day with our Extreme mufflers behind it. When we get them I'lll post them here.
Graham
www.ggb.ca

[dean51267]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. The bolt on mufflers I looked at on your site were $999 pair, the inserts we the $289. To use both leads to a price of $1288/engine, or $2576 per twin engine boat. It sounds like that is what it will take to get the sound dampening I am looking for.
I am the first to say pay for quality, within reason. To use these produts on any twin engine boat will run $2576 plus shipping and the install, no small amount of change, and I have to question if that seems reasonable, to be honest it seems quite excessive.
The cost represents about 5% of the average boat value owned by the folks here on this site. Saying the mufflers on the car cost 5% of the cars value is a statement most would consider outside of reason.
Again, maybe I am mistaken, maybe there is something I missed, and maybe there is no other options out there, and I do believe paying for quality and someone to stand behind a product, but at $2576 I will keep looking.
As a guy who helps lots and lots of small business owners maximize profits and make managing theire business run smoother, I would reconsider my price/volume point and try to create a higher volume product, just a suggestion.

[Essex502]

Dean...your talking about High Performance applications well out of the range of a normal automobile. When the law changes we have to adapt and if the cost of adaptation is high we each have to choose whether or not we will comply with the laws that are in effect. Not compying runs the risk of citation and in some states it is a misdemeanor not a simple infraction. Here, in this application of very high output motors it seems a trivial to spend the money to comply with the noise regs. Yes, it is a lot of dough but so was the motor that makes 1,000+ hp. Lesser applications can probably get by with lower cost solutions.

[dean51267]

I do understand the difference in performance vs. non performance product cost; I raced cars for a long time. But even race and performance products are reasonably priced compared to the cost of the vehicle.
I am not sure I totally disagree with all of the noise restrictions, but I do believe there are those who are price gouging because of recent law changes. I mean come on; they are stainless steel with noise dampeners installed. Sure, there is value there, and for some a lot of value, but that value was created because of a government, not because of a real need being served. The need is artificial, government passes law, creates need, someone come in and fills need and makes a mint. Sounds like a government program to me? Does it not to you?
Here is what is going to happen in the muffler/noise dampening arena regarding hot rod boats (of which I have one):
Someone will say "Hey I can manufacture these for 20% of the price the other guy sells for, double my cost, and sell them for $425 per pair”, and that person will get the business. If the product is patented it will be a Chinese company, if it is not patented, it may be an American company. Either way an artificial profit was earned because of a government regulation, and jobs likely went overseas because of a business owner who did not concentrate on basic economics and tried to make an artificially large profit.
I have seen this will multiple small manufacturing companies, they come up with a great idea, then price it sky high, a few people who are desperate will buy, then the owners think everyone should pay that, but only the separate will, so fewer and fewer buy, in the mean time someone in China (or maybe an American who can get things built in China) says "hey, I will built it there, or outsource the building of it there, and then sell it for 25% of the other guy". That company will typically not stand behind the product as well, but who cares, I can buy four of them for the cost of the other guys, and the quality is the same.
Think about Wal Mart, they were once a small company, but instead of focusing on making an artificial profit (like K-Mart) Wal mart focused on consistently lowering prices and increasing value. Who won?
Again, maybe these products are worth it, but I can wait till the market forces work like they always have and always will. Everyone deserves a profit, and a damn good one, but no one should gouge the market and take advantage of a customer who just got screwed by a bureaucrat with a bad comb over and a DB meter sitting on a pier wailing about a couple good old boys playing hot rod on the water. In the end no one can, the market always corrects itself, unfortunately it takes time, so for the short run anyway, those who got screwed first have little choice but get it again and spend that kind of money on mufflers.
We all wish it were different.

[GGB]

What are you running for motors Dean?

[dean51267]

415 hp each, Corsa Exhaust, basically stock motors

[GGB]

Dean, You wouldn't need the Extreme Clamp-on mufflers to put those engines in compliance. The Extreme mufflers are more suited for engines exceeding 650HP. Two High Flow Insert on each side of your motors would do the job. With the double inserts installed noise levels would drop around 13-15 dB. This would be at a total cost of 289.00/pair x 4 = 1156.00 including shipping. As for performance You may see some bottom end gains and the top end performance will remain unchanged.
Graham

[MudPumper]

Im not the brightest at math but if he was running twin motors and the mufflers were 289/pair wouldn't that come out to a cost of $578.00 including shipping??????

[GGB]

Originally posted by MudPumper
Im not the brightest at math but if he was running twin motors and the mufflers were 289/pair wouldn't that come out to a cost of $578.00 including shipping??????
Now your making me think. He's looking to put two mufflers in each pipe. 1 Pair per exhaust tube x 4 tubes. Sounds right.

[Essex502]

Dean...I disagree a bit...small companies with high overhead costs also have to recoup their development costs. The large companies that come all after a product has reached the market and "knock-off" the design can indeed sell for less as they had/have no design and development costs. All the testing, salaries, supplies, etc. that go into getting the product initially to market were the burden of the original company. It's easy to be second to the market and essentially steal the idea and make it for less.
Also, as mentioned earlier, there is "economy of scale" when quantities ramp up. As manufacturing lot sizes increase, a typical company moves from one manufacturing method to another often more efficient method. Tooling costs can be amortized over a greater number of units - hence the costs go down.
While I'm not in the market for GGB's product, I see there point. It seems to be a very high quality, hand made product. Again, if you don't need nor want to pay for that quality - either because your motors are stock and hence are NOT extreme performance then motor down the line to a cheaper brand.

[dean51267]

Can not disagree with any of the things you stated, but there is a way around the apparent inevenitable, that is for the small manufacturer to accurately project a minimum of number of units to be sold, and then price accordngly. Instead most go to the old model of pricing that says "run it up super high at first, sell to the most desperate, and then lower price as demand slacks off". It is even the model taught in most economic classes, but unfortunately most people, including small business owners, do not get it, technology, the speed at which information transfers, and open boarders mean no one can make an artificial profit, and the idea that you price it high till cost are recovered always leads to failure. I do not necessarly like it, but it is not someting to like to dislike, it just is.
I am very, very involved with some 150 businesses and helping them, plus 4 of my own, my CPA firm outsources many of the controlership functions for small businesses. I also teach this stuff in graduate scool. I agree with what you said, and I do not like the facts as they are, but again, they are not there to like, our opinion is irrelevant, they are just facts.
Bottomline, the price will liekly drop significantly in short order or competing products will come into the market.

[Essex502]

Yes, I agree with your points that some business folks do what you say but I believe that most small business owners haven't been to graduate school, some haven't even been to college and even some haven't graduated high school. As to economics classes...I know lots of small business owners who have never attended these. A very successful friend of mine owns 4 businesses, the property the sit on, a 4,500 sq.ft. primary residence worth $1.2M a secondary residence worth $750K, 10 or 11 vehicles (no boats) and didn't graduate high school. Talents sometimes lend themselves to making money without formal education. Hell, Bill Gates is a college drop-out and he's probably still the world's richest private individual (I haven't seen the latest Forbes).
I don't think the price gouging you're referring to is present in this case from what it sounds like. More so that the GGB mufflers/silencers are a unique product fitting a unique niche.
Oh, well...the world may never know....:D

[MudPumper]

Originally posted by GGB
Now your making me think. He's looking to put two mufflers in each pipe. 1 Pair per exhaust tube x 4 tubes. Sounds right.
My bad, I didn't realize he was going to run two in each pipe. ;)

[BrendellaJet]

First off, people are not irrelevant, our opinions matter. If the prices are too high, dont buy it, if enough people do this, the price will come down.
Most manufacturers dont raise price to gouge the customer, but to control their growth. Demand gets too high, requires growing their business beyond their capability or need, and they lose sight of why they own a business. Raise the price to decrease the demand and maintain similar levels of profit and work.
If you dont like the price, buy an alternative product, they are out there. Dont like them either, make your own.

[superdave013]

Originally posted by BrendellaJet
If you dont like the price, buy an alternative product, they are out there. Dont like them either, make your own.
I agree, and I'm making my own. You just wait until you see these puppys. I'll tell you now they won't be the cheapest out there though. But they won't be copies of anything either.
Every GGb product I've seen have been a class part. When you look at the engines they are going on the price is not that bad either. So you have twins and need 2 sets. boo hoo, must suck to have the coin for a big boat with tiwns and not enough left over for some good mufflers.

[Essex502]

Originally posted by BrendellaJet
First off, people are not irrelevant, our opinions matter. If the prices are too high, dont buy it, if enough people do this, the price will come down.
Most manufacturers dont raise price to gouge the customer, but to control their growth. Demand gets too high, requires growing their business beyond their capability or need, and they lose sight of why they own a business. Raise the price to decrease the demand and maintain similar levels of profit and work.
If you dont like the price, buy an alternative product, they are out there. Dont like them either, make your own.
I don't think I used the "irrelevant" term....:frown:

[BrendellaJet]

Originally posted by Essex502
I don't think I used the "irrelevant" term....:frown:
Thats okay, I wasn't talking to you:p
I beleive it was Dean who did.

[dean51267]

BrendellaJet
I am not sure I meant someone is irrelevant, sorry if it came across that way. Please accept my appologies. I thought I implied in economics our opinions are irrelevant.
This is kinda like asking you how you feel about 2+2=4, let's be honest, how you, or I, feel about that is irrelevant to most people, and if relevant means ability to impact the out come of 2+2, well, our opinions are irrelevant.
Yal, I do think $2600 for mufflers is excessive, some do not, that was not the discussion, the discussion wandered into what the price is now, and what it will be later. I am talking with a client who owns a mall manufacturing facility, he has agreed to make a competiting product as a prototype, and he thinks he can sell them at a profit for $200/pair. He has owned a small manufacturing facility making flexible exhaust hoses for 30 years now, and he understands the performance and spund dampening issues related to exhaust. We do not know how much of a db drop there will bet yet, but we will in another ten days or so. I will keep everyone posted.
Dave,
If we disagree on that so be it, it is not really a big deal, our disagreement will not change the world in any way, it is not like I said your boat sucks or somehting. If I had I guess I would have expected the little flame war you started. How about we just decide not to discuss matters, no harm, no foul, you keep your opinions, I will keep mine. That way I do not have to hear your smart azz comments and you do not have to hear mine. Fair enough?

[superdave013]

Dean, You take this internet stuff way to serious man. But point taken.
Sounds like you have something cooking kinda like I do. Good luck

[Cs19]

DNE motorsports has some pretty trick mufflers for a bassett type header in the making too, we will get some pics up here shortly.