Hillary/ Dems : taking from YOU for COMMON good ??

[carbonmarine]

To The Dems, I wanna know what you say about this. i.e.
A polititian tells you that they are going to take more of of YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY from you, your family in the name of America or Their Feed teh crack baby Social Programs ... could you still be buying homes in Havasu ? Boats, etc... Pisses me off !!
VOTE BOXER OUT !
Rick32 / Carbon
(06-28) 19:03 PDT SAN FRANCISCO (AP) --
The leftiest big city on the Left Coast was Clinton country on Monday, with former President Clinton continuing his blockbuster book tour and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton headlining a Democratic fund-raiser where she vowed to defeat the Republicans' "extraordinarily ruthless machine."
Headlining an appearance with other Democratic women senators on behalf of Sen. Barbara Boxer, who is up for re-election this year, Hillary Clinton told several hundred supporters -- some of whom had ponied up as much as $10,000 to attend -- to expect to lose some of the tax cuts passed by President Bush if Democrats win the White House and control of Congress.
"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said. "We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

[OGShocker]

Popcorn anyone?..:D

[cdog]

Trying not to comment.......BBBBBBBoats are cool:mad: :mad: :mad:

[summerlove]

Originally posted by OGShocker
Popcorn anyone?..:D
You been quiet....
In response to Mr. Sensation: BLAHBLAHBLAH!!!:yuk: ;)

[Lake Pirate]

Did somebody call me? :rolleyes:
I hate to burst your imaginary deficit bubble carbonmarine but, it's real. Really! Living for the moment is ok. Greed is ok. Wanting something for nothing is ok. Alas...some of us want there to be an America for our kids someday. Hopefully we can give them a chance to fix all our fu*kups... your's too! A tax increase of let's say 10% is nothing if you only make 15,000 year. However if you're a greedy bastard and making 300,000 a year...it's quite a bit. The greedy bastard with 300 grand will survive though. I know how tough it is scraping by on 270 thousand a year but hopefully you might be willing to wash the Jag just once a week for the good of America.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by summerlove
You been quiet....
In response to Mr. Sensation: BLAHBLAHBLAH!!!:yuk: ;)
Dude, you forgot : Yadda Yadda Yadda....................

[carbonmarine]

Before I start in.... Please explain how earning that 300K is greedy.?

[Chris Winn]

hello Lake pirate,
i usually stay out of the polical threads, but until you make nearly that amount it will be hard for you to understand the costs tht arrive at that level, just becuase you make that amount it does not mean that you need to float the people that do not (for the common good!!!!!). to make that kind of money it does take risk, hard work and many other tools that the people whom make less have not taken the nessesary steps to advance themselves in order to compete on that scale.
i am not against helping those with less (i give to the childens home every christamas and to several charitys at my discretion, not HILLARY"S).
to say that those who make the money should pay more is pure commie BS, where is the incentive to achieve more??? if i though that i were going to tp out at X level of income due to tax regs, them screw it, i would stop there and rest for the time being.
having more income also means that we are greater consumers in the market place, we buy more items than others would. by increasing our taxes there will be less to spend in the consumer market place, and more for the governmant to tie up in burocratic BS, i like to chose where my money goes and whom should be able to receive it.

[carbonmarine]

chris, nicly said..... I was waiting to hear how he rationalized that stament though...
Rick

[Lake Pirate]

It's nice you give to charities, and very American to want to decide where your income goes. However...
I said "a greedy bastard making three hundred g's" That does not include all people making 300 g's. Just the greedy ones. I also said a 10% increase for everybody (hypothetically) not just the higher income tax base.
Here in the trailer park we don't get to spend much of you rich folks money so you gotta understand when we get the chance...yer fuc*ked!
You have been paying taxes your whole life like your father before you and like your children will after you. (assuming your not a cheat :) )

[Chris Winn]

taxes
sorry Rick, i never butt in.... but i have been hearing that alot latey, and i feel that if we do not state our points than it will be construed as agreement.

[Dr. Eagle]

Having made the "big bucks" once in my life, I can tell you that paying 51% of what I made that year to a combination of the Federal and State governments just for the income taxes wasn't pleasant. Not to mention that I paid property, sales, use, energy, phone, excise and a host of other taxes that year. Two years after making the fat cat big bucks... I made $0.00 for the year. thank god I had some of that money left over from what the Government had expropriated (I paid by check) so I could afford to live.
So the question is, WTF ENTITLES the government to that kind of money that was the outcome of MY work and nothing that the government had done to facilitate my work or assist me in making that windfall? Since I would have been considered a "rich bastard" for that year... WTF for all the other years. Does a one year windfall make you a "rich bastard". I was looking at that as my retirement nest egg. Gone now, I had to live on it for almost three years before I could work my way back into the job market following my unfortunate accident.

[Lake Pirate]

Just out of curiosity where do you guys think the money comes from to pay for your multi trillion dollar war and the general cost of running the government?
You do realize the army is a non profit deal? There is no "spoils of war."

[Chris Winn]

part of it comes form the almost 50% of my income that they get, that is why i am sensitive any sort of increase.
BTW- "spoils of war"??? do not get me started, reparations should be made we should get our investment in their fredom back before the other contries get to profit from their marketplace.
just my humble comment;)

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Just out of curiosity where do you guys think the money comes from to pay for your multi trillion dollar war and the general cost of running the government?
You do realize the army is a non profit deal? There is no "spoils of war."
It's Multi Billion by the way.
Yes the Army is overhead. I don't mind paying for the Army. It is all the other crap that the federal government has no effing business invovling itself in. All of the social programs run with far worse efficiency than the Armed Forces that I have the problem with. All your social engineering at work... all the spoils that others have decided to allocate themselves.

[mirvin]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Did somebody call me? :rolleyes:
I hate to burst your imaginary deficit bubble carbonmarine but, it's real. Really! Living for the moment is ok. Greed is ok. Wanting something for nothing is ok. Alas...some of us want there to be an America for our kids someday. Hopefully we can give them a chance to fix all our fu*kups... your's too! A tax increase of let's say 10% is nothing if you only make 15,000 year. However if you're a greedy bastard and making 300,000 a year...it's quite a bit. The greedy bastard with 300 grand will survive though. I know how tough it is scraping by on 270 thousand a year but hopefully you might be willing to wash the Jag just once a week for the good of America.
It's comments like this that show your true colors. Just cus someone makes a good living that makes them a "greedy bastard" eh? And just cus they're a greedy bastard that means they should take a larger tax burden?
bs.
mirvin;)

[Lake Pirate]

I agree... reparations should be made. (We should take the friggin oil.) But, you and I both know that won't happen. Your taxes aren't enough. We have a trade deficit and an out of control national debt. Everybody on the planet owes us money we will never collect. The only way to pay the bills is with taxes. If our debt get's much worse the dollar will devaluate. if that happens you will be paying even more for less. There are no other solutions that are realistic. Either way your gonna get it. Might as well pay the debt while we're at it. :)

[Lake Pirate]

Mirvin ~ it might behoove you to read all the posts. ;)

[Chris Winn]

i agree with the good DR,
there are too many social programs going on right now that are over subidised and/or porrly run with the money provided. the people (dare i say heros) in our armed forces deserve better pay an benifts, its sad to see some military familys doing worse than the crack ***** who has become a baby factory (i know that this is an extreme point) but any personthat place their a$$ in a place of defense for our country desrves a little more.

[carbonmarine]

I've been waiting for minutes now.
The issue here is "entitlement" under a guise of class warfare strickly for election purposes... Its a classic democratic party tactic. i.e. The pitting of the supposed have's agaisnt the have not's in an effort redistribute wealth through social programs deemed worthy by left leaning elected officals and such. They play administrator with your money, minds and train of thought all to employ more and more DMV workers as a result....
America is, should be ( was ) an individuals dream, not a collectivist reality....... To borrow a grat line: Americas business is Business !!!
You guys are way defunct in your rational and again, you've been institutionalized in your political education. You dont know any better !! ** Your thinking is pre cooked & canned liberal loonacy..
Take a deep breath, there is always the caring and compassionate members of HOT BOAT to sort this shit out for you.....
Rick32/ Carb
:cool:

[Sleek-Jet]

Here's a news flash, people that make 15,000 a year don't pay taxes, all of it get's refunded. Tax increases or decreases mean nothing to them, hell I'd vote for an increase to if I made that amount, what the hell, won't affect me.

[mirvin]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Mirvin ~ it might behoove you to read all the posts. ;)
Just because you try to explain why you said something doesn't mean I buy it.
It might behoove you to get your facts strait before you start blathering about taxes and who should be paying them. Maybe you should sell your boat and donate the money....
mirvin;)

[Wicky]

Democrats should have to walk. No gas for their cars. No wood for their houses. No meat for their dinner tables. Only trees to hug. Boats are definitely out of the question.
F.u.c.k.i.n.g hypocrits if they own any of the above.

[Chris Winn]

lake pirate,
just by payiong taxes we are not solving the problems, (stick one finger into the dam just to spring another leak) we need to adress the issues that are driving this debt and structure ways to reduce them. i do not pretent to know how to do this, nor am i voulantering, but i know thta we do have the tools and resources avilable to us that can fix these problem. the problem we have is that we cannot stay out of their fricken way without 5 subcommities looking over them to accomplish anything.

[Lake Pirate]

Gee Mirvin... you seem rather edgy? I'm hearing lot's of bravado about social classes and social programs but, no solutions? The country needs money. You can hypothesize all you want about change but your President nor mine has done much about it. Big talk doesn't change the deficit and it doesn't pay for the war. it always comes down to us...tha tax payer to bear the burden of national debt and government expense.
I used 15,000 as an example not a reality. You also assume I don't make very much money? Maybe I do, maybe I don't, but remember...not every democrat is driving a taxi.

[OGShocker]

Originally posted by summerlove
You been quiet....
I am at the lake drinking a beer! Sux to be you...LOL :p
GET'EM Carbon'

[Wicky]

BTW, I just recieved an invitation to the 2004 Annual President's Dinner & NRCC's Business Advisory Council Annual board meeting in DC July 19-21st.
Anybody want to buy my $1,500 a plate dinner?

[Chris Winn]

lake pirate,
the country does not need more tax money, it needs to spend more wisley.
just like any one of us regular Joes, if we get over extended, we cannot just go to our boss and demand more money. we can go to a bank borrow more money, take it out of our houses that will most likey go down a bit in value after the election (if the value is not already maxed out). or we can access the way in which we spend our money an figure out ways that will make this amount of money work, if that will not work, than it is time to eliminate some of the debt cuasing practices utill you are back in line.
nuff said????
Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Gee Mirvin... you seem rather edgy? I'm hearing lot's of bravado about social classes and social programs but, no solutions? The country needs money. You can hypothesize all you want about change but your President nor mine has done much about it. Big talk doesn't change the deficit and it doesn't pay for the war. it always comes down to us...tha tax payer to bear the burden of national debt and government expense.
I used 15,000 as an example not a reality. You also assume I don't make very much money? Maybe I do, maybe I don't, but remember...not every democrat is driving a taxi.

[Lake Pirate]

I see your point carbon but it's just not reality. Nothing is going to change because nothing has changed. I had the valuable opportunity to have dinner one night with Mr Red Skelton before his death. He was a fascinating individual and true patriot in the classic sense of the word. There is nothing he would not have done for his country. One topic he always came to was taxes. He spoke compassionately about taxation until the day he died. He wasn't greedy but he knew if America were to survive (like any business) then it needed to be managed correctly. His diatribe was thus: In WWI there was an emergency tax increase to support the war. This was done again in WWII, during Korea and also Viet Nam. None of these "emergency" increases were ever removed. Right now over fifty percent of the taxes we pay are the result of these emergency increases. This is all monies misused on social programs and general beaurocracy. The sad thing... they will never be removed. It's not about the dems or the reps. It's about a government gone amuk. A government so far gone there is no solution but to rebuild it from scratch.

[Dr. Eagle]

Very valid points Pirate...

[Chris Winn]

river pirate,
i can respect your opinion, but all it would take is for the right people to care for this to work, most of the important happenings have been made possible by the few people passionate enough to take the cause up.
i'M off for lunch, i need to assist the minumum wage populace at the local grease pit!

[SoCalOffshore]

Hey 300 grand doesn't buy what it use to. Boats, babes and gas all add up. :D

[Lake Pirate]

Of course any reasonable person would agree with Chris but, beaurocracy and a four year tenure is what got us into this mess. No president (hoping for reelection) is going to spend his term wading through the decades old mire of beaurocratic horseshit to do the right thing. They have four years to put on a show and that's what they do. Taxation needs a revolution. Some generation some time will finally say enough is enough and restructure our government into a functioning corporate entity that only self perpetuates. Until then you have big shots acting like big shots and taking their turn at infamy and the dream of a legacy. No good can come of ultimate power for short terms. Even Casto mellowed out over time and took a look at his infrastructure. Our guys don't have that chance. Maybe we need a woman?

[eliminatedsprinter]

The main reason, I can see, that we haven't got rid of the income tax and replaced with a much simpler and more efficient federal sales tax is, because over half the Lawyers in the nation make their living off of our currentl assinine system......

[Chris Winn]

or you could look at a system like singapore uses (i spend about 1 month out of the year there). they run the country like a buisness, but the rules are a little stiff for my tastes.
1) there is a flat tax for every working person (i can't remember the amount, but it is resonable)
2) if you do not own a car or vehicle that places wear and tear on the roads, you are not taxed on for the use of them, when you buy a car, the use tax is very high (100%). but this includes your tags, smog and insurance (very good idea, no eff'n people without insurance) for a peiod of i believe 7 years (if you get too many tickets, they do add a surcharge)
3) everyone is required to serve 2-3 years in the military, then you are required to perform reserve duty untill 40 years old or so. this also buys you a spot in the univeristy, so if you go elsewhere they will sponsor a portion
4) the taxes are high, but most are use taxes are based only for those who chose to buy and use the utilitys that the government has to spend normal tax money, leaving them to do so elsewhere.
just some structure, that i have seen work....

[Lake Pirate]

All good ideas. Now how do we get rid of the corrupt two party system in place? Anarchy? Nader?
I think it's too far gone and so are we. Most americans are so sidetracked by the "he said, she said" diversion created by the two party system they will evolve no further than the "we won" mentality. In fact...nobody wins. So...(getting back on track) our taxes have to go up to compensate for waste, greed and malice.
On a high note...if I win the lottery tonight I'll prolly jump on the right side of the tracks. I'm not giving up my hard earned winnings to those lower income sychophants! :cool:

[Boatcop]

I think what's needed here is a quick economy lesson.
The best social program to help the poor and un/underemployed is a JAY-OH-BEE.
Who creates the jobs? Not the Government. Private business, and the people who own those businesses make the jobs.
You lessen the tax burden on those rich people and their businesses, they see more of a profit and the ability to expand their businesses, create more jobs, and give raises to their workers. All of this means MORE taxes paid by the business. Less of a percentage maybe, but more real dollars.
Those workers will spend more money, buy more things, helping to drive profits for businesses, to expand and hire more workers. It just keeps going. They also enter the job market and become tax payers, rather than tax users. That alone is a 200% swing in tax in vs. tax out.
Now if you raise the taxes on those rich people with businesses, they'll have to cut costs. The only way to do that is to cut production, (which raises prices), lay off people, outsource to other countries, pay-cuts, etc, which puts less money into the economy, more people on the public dole, and more need for tax money to support the unemployed. So they raise taxes again, and it gets worse.
History has shown that when taxes are raised, less money goes into the National Treasury. When taxes are lowered, the Treasury sees an increase in money coming in.
All one has to do is look at the USSR and see how well Socialism works. Oh wait. There is no more USSR.
I wonder why?

[Dave C]

LP,
Divide and conquer....

[Dave C]

WOW and from a civil servant too. Good Job BC.!
Originally posted by Boatcop
I think what's needed here is a quick economy lesson.
The best social program to help the poor and un/underemployed is a JAY-OH-BEE.
Who creates the jobs? Not the Government. Private business, and the people who own those businesses make the jobs.
You lessen the tax burden on those rich people and their businesses, they see more of a profit and the ability to expand their businesses, create more jobs, and give raises to their workers. All of this means MORE taxes paid by the business. Less of a percentage maybe, but more real dollars.
Those workers will spend more money, buy more things, helping to drive profits for businesses, to expand and hire more workers. It just keeps going. They also enter the job market and become tax payers, rather than tax users. That alone is a 200% swing in tax in vs. tax out.
Now if you raise the taxes on those rich people with businesses, they'll have to cut costs. The only way to do that is to cut production, (which raises prices), lay off people, outsource to other countries, pay-cuts, etc, which puts less money into the economy, more people on the public dole, and more need for tax money to support the unemployed. So they raise taxes again, and it gets worse.
History has shown that when taxes are raised, less money goes into the National Treasury. When taxes are lowered, the Treasury sees an increase in money coming in.
All one has to do is look at the USSR and see how well Socialism works. Oh wait. There is no more USSR.
I wonder why?

[Dave C]

FYI; She was speaking in Frisco at a Democratic rally for Boxer. Their Frisco supporters are extremely rich Dems (earning $500,000 to a $1mil per year) I call them limosine liberals.
They are a bunch of phonies
Originally posted by carbonmarine
"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said. "We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

[Lake Pirate]

In theory what Boatcop is saying is true. But wait...there's more! Historically he is accurate, as we all know. Economy 101, but alas, there is a new wrench in the gears that defies historical precedence. What you say? Yes...a wrench.
Never before in recorded history has the major supporters of the economy (big business) moved their jobs out of the country with such exodus. Now we are paying other economies for the mfg and trying to support the purchase of goods from what is left of industry in the State. It get's worse. Another precedent (and sad lament) is that we are supporting a war effort while we are supporting outsourced economies with our mfg. This means we are spending it quicker than we can make it. Or even worse...spending money we can never recover. It's a brave new world. belly up, bend over and be prepared to subsidize the economy out of pocket that would normally be supported by industry.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by Dave C
WOW and from a civil servant too. Good Job BC.!
I'm also a civil servant and I agree with all of what he said.
P.S. My wife and I live in high priced So Cal and our combined yearly income is less than 100k and the Bush Tax cuts helped my family a lot.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
In theory what Boatcop is saying is true. But wait...there's more! Historically he is accurate, as we all know. Economy 101, but alas, there is a new wrench in the gears that defies historical precedence. What you say? Yes...a wrench.
Never before in recorded history has the major supporters of the economy (big business) moved their jobs out of the country with such exodus. Now we are paying other economies for the mfg and trying to support the purchase of goods from what is left of industry in the State. It get's worse. Another precedent (and sad lament) is that we are supporting a war effort while we are supporting outsourced economies with our mfg. This means we are spending it quicker than we can make it. Or even worse...spending money we can never recover. It's a brave new world. belly up, bend over and be prepared to subsidize the economy out of pocket that would normally be supported by industry.
Don't ignore the role high taxes play in driving business out of the country....

[Lake Pirate]

Don't ignore the role unions and insurance have in driving industry out of the country.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Don't ignore the role unions and insurance have in driving industry out of the country.
That too...
And don't let talking about macro economics and politics create any bad feelings, that might make it less fun to drink beer and boat together.:cool: ;)

[Lake Pirate]

I never take any of this seriously. It's merely a diversion for me. Stimuli as it were. ;)

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
I never take any of this seriously. It's merely a diversion for me. Stimuli as it were. ;)
:D :D :D
Got to go home and get the RV ready for the weekend. :cool:

[Dave C]

Not sure I agree with this in its entirety. Some jobs have gone overseas but others have been created here in this country to make a net job increase. No consolation to those that lost their jobs though.
I would agree that UNRESTRAINED free trade will create problems, especially with dumping, but regulated free trade is generally a good thing for us as whole.
Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Never before in recorded history has the major supporters of the economy (big business) moved their jobs out of the country with such exodus. Now we are paying other economies for the mfg and trying to support the purchase of goods from what is left of industry in the State. It get's worse. Another precedent (and sad lament) is that we are supporting a war effort while we are supporting outsourced economies with our mfg. This means we are spending it quicker than we can make it. Or even worse...spending money we can never recover. It's a brave new world. belly up, bend over and be prepared to subsidize the economy out of pocket that would normally be supported by industry.

[BUSTI]

START OVER? Are you crazy? The obsurdity of your claims that the sky is falling and that our children will inherit a country that is fdup is so silly!
Yes we have problems as country but lets get some things straight! America, TODAY, even with its so called problems .............produces more wealth, more health care, more education, more jobs, more prosperity, MORE INVENTIONS, MORE FOOD, more civil justice and more freedom to more people than any other COUNNTRY EVER HAS IN THE HISTORY OF MAN KIND!
AMERICA IS THE GREATEST FORCE FOR GOOD ON THE PLANET TODAY AND HAS BEEN SINCE ITS INCEPTION!
The answer is simple return the federal government to its primary goals as defined by the founding fathers.
1) Defend Americans, their interests and Americas borders from foreign enemies. Obviouly a strong military is needed with the will to use it. FIRST AND FOREMOST THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS ROLE IS TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY. That means where ever the enemies are. Like I have said before I'd rather kill the enemy in the middle east and sacrifice our trained armed brave soldiers deing there.....than our sisters and daughters deing here by jumping out burning buildings rather than by having their flesh boiled off from buring jet fuel. Immigration and border patrol included in this category.
2) Establish and maintain a currency and a standard weights and measures for which we can fairly trade and barter with one and other.
3) Provide for peace domestically and protect all Americans from enemies from with in. Obviuosly police fire and criminal provention services should be just as impoertant as the military and funded as such. This includes crimminal justice system with courts, judges and prisons.
4) Establish and maintain a quick and resonable civil court system to settle desputes that will occur between our selves over money and or our property.
Other than that do not believe that the federal or local governent should be spending its time or our money do provide: any social services, education, welfare, marriage rights, street sweeper services, abortion counceling, health care, Department of Motor Vehicles ect, ect ect!
This country was founded on one overwhelming principle that many of you have seemed to forget.........THAT IS AMERICA WAS FOUNDED ON THE VIRTURES OF SELFISHNESS!!!!!!!!!
Thats right! Our founding fathers realized that freedom of individual pursuits for ones own selfish gain would produce the highest standard of living for all. This coupled to an enduring committment to the right own your own proerty and pursue your own happiness for you and your family and that NO ONE HAD THE RIGHT TO YOUR OWN LABOR AND THE FRUITS OF SUCH IS TRUELY THE ONLY WAY TO CREATE REAL LASTING PROSPERITY FOR ALL!
You see lake pirate your vision of America is dull witted and devoid of the selfish optimism that has made this country the greatest country of all time on God's green earth.
Do we have problems? Yes! Can they be fixed? Of course!
Do we need to start over? HELL NO!
YOU CAN START by abondoning this shit that the 2 party system sucks. Our two party system as we know it is the only way capitalism can work in this country. You see there is capitalism and then everything else on the left! There is a difference between demorats and Republicans. Not much it would seem but think about it demorats define their worth in life by what their government will do for them. Example welfare, socail security, tranfer payments like medicare, and all the unions that can only exist today with government intervention. howver republicans usually derive their value in life from and by their own effort not from transfer payments from the government.
Vote bush and thats a start to make this country better.

[Lake Pirate]

I could almost hear John Philip Sousa and 76 Trombones in the background. Be honest... you got one of those old Franklin roll top desks and it's making you feel like the man in the gray flannel suit? Am I right?
I can appreciate the pomp of Americana in your post. Being a patriot is a good thing. I disagree that turning a blind eye and just "believing" will get anything done. All good things come to an end. By understanding that, and adjusting accordingly, one can abate the inevitable. I'd like to translate your post into Latin. I'm almost sure the Romans said the same thing. ;)

[CA Stu]

"Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society" - Oliver Wendell Holmes.
Anyone that thinks that personal income tax is for generation of revenue for the Feds is not very aware of reality.
The reality is that the tax code is social engineering. Designed to motivate the citizenry into spending their money where the govrernment wants it to be spent.
For example, home mortgage interest is deductible because the governmant wants people to buy houses.
Business loan interest is deductible because the government wants business to invest in itself, so on ands so forth.
This is where I think the Democratrs and Republicans have a core difference.
One group wants a large slice of a small pie for tax revenue, the other wants a smaller slice of a much larger pie.
Thanks
CA Stu <-- gimme a big pie economy anyday.

[Dave C]

sssshhhhh... don't tell anyone... their rhetoric might get all screwed up.
Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter
Bush Tax cuts helped my family a lot.
what I find funny is that Billary actually acknowledged that the Bush tax cuts helped her supporters....... Ironic, huh!

[h2oski2fast]

First we have this:
Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Did somebody call me? :rolleyes:
I hate to burst your imaginary deficit bubble carbonmarine but, it's real. Really! Living for the moment is ok. Greed is ok. Wanting something for nothing is ok. Alas...some of us want there to be an America for our kids someday. Hopefully we can give them a chance to fix all our fu*kups... your's too! A tax increase of let's say 10% is nothing if you only make 15,000 year. However if you're a greedy bastard and making 300,000 a year...it's quite a bit. The greedy bastard with 300 grand will survive though. I know how tough it is scraping by on 270 thousand a year but hopefully you might be willing to wash the Jag just once a week for the good of America.
Then we have this?
I see your point carbon but it's just not reality. Nothing is going to change because nothing has changed. I had the valuable opportunity to have dinner one night with Mr Red Skelton before his death. He was a fascinating individual and true patriot in the classic sense of the word. There is nothing he would not have done for his country. One topic he always came to was taxes. He spoke compassionately about taxation until the day he died. He wasn't greedy but he knew if America were to survive (like any business) then it needed to be managed correctly. His diatribe was thus: In WWI there was an emergency tax increase to support the war. This was done again in WWII, during Korea and also Viet Nam. None of these "emergency" increases were ever removed. Right now over fifty percent of the taxes we pay are the result of these emergency increases. This is all monies misused on social programs and general beaurocracy. The sad thing... they will never be removed. It's not about the dems or the reps. It's about a government gone amuk. A government so far gone there is no solution but to rebuild it from scratch .
So you say that we need to pay more? That sounds like a contrdiction to me?

[Jordy]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
I agree... reparations should be made. (We should take the friggin oil.) But, you and I both know that won't happen.
Whoa, stop the liberal express. I was under the impression, at least according to the liberal diatribe, that this war was all about the oil and was merely being thinly veiled as a humanitarian/safety kind of deal. You mean that wasn't true? Now I'm really confused. The liberals must have spun it again. :confused: :D

[Lake Pirate]

I don't want to pay more taxes. I just understand the inevitability and need. Read all my posts. I explained my position. If you jump around you get only a fraction of the debate.

[Lake Pirate]

JP ~ you are probably not a dumb person but you should really rethink your post. You left yourself wide open to defend the largest Presidential lie in history. I'm sure it was just an accident. ;)

[Jordy]

In response to all the taxation/politician broken system handout kind of deal, I'm going to start a new thread with something I got today so it doesn't get lost in this mess.

[Jordy]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
JP ~ you are probably not a dumb person but you should really rethink your post. You left yourself wide open to defend the largest Presidential lie in history. I'm sure it was just an accident. ;)
I'm not a dumb person, but your original post kind of confused me since I thought we were there for the oil in the first place and that was all that mattered.
I thought that "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" was the largest lie too. :D :D :D

[Lake Pirate]

It was actually the conservatives that boasted for us to "hang loose, it's about the oil." Every Dem I know knew damn good and well it was vengeance for Daddy. Your President (I just can't claim this guy) told us infallibly that it was "the war on terror" your guy then turned around and said "It's about WMD" and then yet again your guy tells us "We are liberating the Iraqi people." All unbelievably blatant lies. However... this is thread drift.
The point is understanding there will be a tax increase to pay for "Daddy's war."

[CA Stu]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
It was actually the conservatives that boasted for us to "hang loose, it's about the oil." Every Dem I know knew damn good and well it was vengeance for Daddy. Your President (I just can't claim this guy) told us infallibly that it was "the war on terror" your guy then turned around and said "It's about WMD" and then yet again your guy tells us "We are liberating the Iraqi people." All unbelievably blatant lies. However... this is thread drift.
The point is understanding there will be a tax increase to pay for "Daddy's war."
Lake Pirate, you are so far off base it's laughable.
This war was to stop a tyrannical dictator that was well on the way to having a large biolocigcal and nuclear arsenal. He already had chemical wweapons, and was engaging in the most heinous violations of basic human rights.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39045
Read below:
OPERATION: IRAQI FREEDOM
New video reveals
real torture scandal
Saddam's daily horrors make America's
Abu Ghraib abuses seem almost trivial
Posted: June 21, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By David Kupelian
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
The heated charge that prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib by U.S. service personnel was somehow equivalent to that perpetrated by Saddam Hussein – a notion pervasive in the Muslim world and epitomized in the West by Sen. Edward Kennedy's remark that "we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management, U.S. management'' – has had ice-cold water dumped on it by a horrific new video.
Screened for reporters last week by Washington's American Enterprise Institute, the 4-plus-minute video clip, reportedly obtained from the Pentagon, captures the routine beating, torture, dismemberment and decapitation that occurred daily at the hands of Saddam's henchmen.
However, only a handful of reporters showed up to see the new video, and even fewer reported on it.
One journalist present was New York Post's Washington bureau chief Deborah Orin, who wrote of "savage scenes of decapitation, fingers chopped off one by one, tongues hacked out with a razor blade – all while victims shriek in pain and the thugs chant Saddam's praises."
Iraqi prisoner beaten by Saddam's torturers (AEI video)
Noting that "Saddam's henchmen took the videos as newsreels to document their deeds in honor of their leader," Orin added, "but these awful images didn't show up on American TV news."
In fact, Orin mulled, why did no U.S. media "air the videos of Nick Berg and Wall Street Journal reporter Danny Pearl getting decapitated, or of U.S. contractors in Fallujah getting torn limb from limb by al-Qaida operatives," and yet gave saturation coverage, including endless photos, of Iraqi prisoners being abused by U.S. troops at Abu Ghraib.
For that matter, why did no U.S. media air images of American hostage Paul M. Johnson Jr. being beheaded earlier this week by his terrorist captors in Saudi Arabia?
"Because most [journalists] want Bush to lose," AEI scholar Michael Ledeen, who helped put on the video screening event, told Orin.
The sustained fever-pitch publicity over the abuses at Abu Ghraib has included only occasional oblique references to what transpired at the prison under Saddam Hussein's rule.
Saddam's henchmen amputating fingers of Iraqi victim (AEI video)
"Under Saddam Hussein," the AEI website said of Abu Ghraib, "some thirty thousand people were executed there, and countless more were tortured and mutilated, returning to Iraqi society as visible evidence of the brutality of Baathist rule instead of being lost to the anonymity of mass graves."
Amputation complete (AEI video)
Present at the screening event were four victims of Saddam's torture. They, along with three other merchants living and working in Baghdad, each had their right hands amputated during Saddam's reign. Fortunately, all seven came to the United States for medical attention and received state-of-the-art prosthetic hands. Four of them spoke at the AEI event, alongside the screening of the video documenting Saddam's horrors.
Culture of torture
Putting the U.S. military's abuses of Abu Ghraib into better context is a recent document from the State Department's Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor. Here's what the official December 2002 report said about the scope and extent of Saddam's abuse of Iraq's population.
"In 1979, immediately upon coming to power, Saddam Hussein silenced all political opposition in Iraq and converted his one-party state into a cult of personality. Over the more than 20 years since then, his regime has systematically executed, tortured, imprisoned, raped, terrorized and repressed Iraqi people. Iraq is a nation rich in culture with a long history of intellectual and scientific achievement. Yet Saddam Hussein has silenced its scholars and doctors, as well as its women and children.
"Iraqi dissidents are tortured, killed or disappear in order to deter other Iraqi citizens from speaking out against the government or demanding change. A system of collective punishment tortures entire families or ethnic groups for the acts of one dissident. Women are raped and often videotaped during rape to blackmail their families. Citizens are publicly beheaded, and their families are required to display the heads of the deceased as a warning to others who might question the politics of this regime.
"Saddam Hussein was also the first leader to use chemical weapons against his own population, silencing more than 60 villages and 30,000 citizens with poisonous gas. Between 1983 and 1988 alone, he murdered more than 30,000 Iraqi citizens with mustard gas and nerve agents. Several international organizations claim that he killed more than 60,000 Iraqi citizens with chemicals, including large numbers of women and children."
'Hopelessness, sadness and fear'
"The Iraqi people are not allowed to vote to remove the government," said the State Department report. (In the last election, there was one candidate. The ballot said "Saddam Hussein: Yes or No?" Each ballot was numbered so any no votes could be traced to the unfortunate voter, who would disappear forever. Saddam got 100 percent of the vote.)
"Freedom of expression, association and movement do not exist in Iraq. The media is tightly controlled – Saddam Hussein's son owns the daily Iraqi newspaper. Iraqi citizens cannot assemble except in support of the government. Iraqi citizens cannot freely leave Iraq."
Safia Al Souhail, an Iraqi citizen and advocacy director of the International Alliance for Justice, described daily reality during Saddam's reign this way:
"Iraq under Saddam's regime has become a land of hopelessness, sadness and fear. A country where people are ethnically cleansed; prisoners are tortured in more than 300 prisons in Iraq. Rape is systematic ... congenital malformation, birth defects, infertility, cancer and various disorders are the results of Saddam's gassing of his own people ... the killing and torturing of husbands in front of their wives and children ... Iraq under Saddam has become a hell and a museum of crimes."
The State Department report continues: "Under Saddam Hussein's orders, the security apparatus in Iraq routinely and systematically tortures its citizens. Beatings, rape, breaking of limbs and denial of food and water are commonplace in Iraqi detention centers. Saddam Hussein's regime has also invented unique and horrific methods of torture including electric shocks to a male's genitals, pulling out fingernails, suspending individuals from rotating ceiling fans, dripping acid on a victim's skin, gouging out eyes, and burning victims with a hot iron or blowtorch."
Why didn't more Iraqis complain? Possibly because of Saddam's decree in 2000 authorizing the government to amputate the tongues of citizens who criticize him or his government. The AEI video depicts one such tongue amputation, using a razor blade while the tongue is held with tweezers.
The following, according to the State Department report, were routine in Iraq during Saddam Hussein's rule:
* Medical experimentation
* Beatings
* Crucifixion
* Hammering nails into the fingers and hands
* Amputating sex organs or breasts with an electric carving knife
* Spraying insecticides into a victim's eyes
* Branding with a hot iron
* Committing rape while the victim's spouse is forced to watch
* Pouring boiling water into the victim's rectum
* Nailing the tongue to a wooden board
* Extracting teeth with pliers
* Using bees and scorpions to sting naked children in front of their parents
Saddam also routinely tortured and murdered women. The daily newspaper "Babel," owned by Uday, Hussein's eldest son, contained a public admission on Feb. 13, 2001 of beheading women who were suspected of prostitution.
The Iraqi Women's League in Damascus, Syria, described this practice as follows: "Under the pretext of fighting prostitution, units of 'Feda'iyee Saddam,' the paramilitary organization led by Uday, have beheaded in public more than 200 women all over the country, dumping their severed heads at their families' doorsteps. Many of the victims were innocent professional women, including some who were suspected of being dissidents."
'Too awful to show'
Why, asks Orin, does the world see "photos of U.S. interrogators using dogs to scare prisoners at Abu Ghraib, but not the footage of Saddam's prisoners getting fed – alive – to Doberman pinschers on Saddam's watch"?
Besides the obvious role of partisan politics in an election year, Orin points to another factor: the fact that Saddam's tortures, like al-Qaida's, are so horrible that they're unbearable to watch, almost too atrocious to describe in words.
But the result of this, notes Orin, is that the media's unbalanced coverage is "worse than creating moral equivalence between Saddam's tortures and prisoner abuse by U.S. troops. It's that we do far more to highlight our own wrongdoings precisely because they are less appalling. ...
"We highlight U.S. prisoner abuse because the photos aren't too offensive to show. We downplay Saddam's abuse precisely because it's far worse – so we can't use the photos. And that sets the stage for remarks like Sen. Ted Kennedy's claim that Saddam's torture chambers have reopened under 'U.S. management.'"
Friday, Kennedy and others who morally equate U.S. leadership with Saddam Hussein were joined by one more superstar – pop music icon Madonna – who declared that President Bush and Saddam "are both behaving in an irresponsible manner."
"Reporters," concludes Orin, "have to face up to the fact that right now, if we highlight the wrongs that Americans commit but not – out of squeamishness – the far worse horrors committed by others, we become propaganda tools for the other side."
Readers may view the video on the AEI website, but caution is advised. The video is extremely graphic and disturbing, and definitely unsuitable for children.
--------------------------------------------------
The link to the video (http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.844,filter.all/event_detail.asp)
It's sad and pathetic that the liberal press refuses to acknowledge the brutality of Saddma's regime and the threat it posed to all of us.
You can bury your head in the sand and think that the world is full of nice people, but the fact is that this guy needed to be stopped. We stopped him, and did his country as well as the rest of the world a favor.
I had a thought... Do you think we should have dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Thanks
CA Stu

[Jordy]

In my best Hank Hill voice:
"Dammit Stu, there you go cluttering up the debate with facts again... " :D :D :D

[Lake Pirate]

Gee Stu, that's a C&P only Tolstoy could love. Stephen King's "IT" pales in comparison. I'm gonna have to assume it completely supports your argument.
When we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima we didn't go ahead and drop one on Argentina and Transylvania for good measure.
We were ousting the government in Afghanistan and said what the hay...let's invade Iraq while were at it. We'll just tell the American people it's part of the war on terror. They'll never notice the difference?
We all know Saddam is a bad guy. The lie(s) has/have nothing to do with that.
Based on your logic we may as well invade Italy and Poland. What the hell..they probably have a terrorist or two?
Zeig heil

[CA Stu]

Did you read it?
Do you still think the invasion of Iraq was all for GW's Daddy?
Like a lot of folks of your ilk, when confronted by the facts, you turn to name calling and refuse to address the matter on the table.
Your logic is flawed, and I think you are refusing to endorse this military action based solely on your dislike of our (yes, yours and mine) president, rather than judging it on its own merits.
One man one vote
CA Stu

[Lake Pirate]

I refuse to endorse a military action that is based on a lie. I already agreed Saddam is a bad guy. The logical target was Somalia and NOT Iraq after Afghanistan. This war is bullshit know matter what excuse y'all finally settle on as a reason.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
I refuse to endorse a military action that is based on a lie. I already agreed Saddam is a bad guy. The logical target was Somalia and NOT Iraq after Afghanistan. This war is bullshit know matter what excuse y'all finally settle on as a reason.
Got anymore pics of your sister in them yeller shoes?

[Wicky]

Interesting you bring up the Romans and sorry to fall off the subject but, every democracy in the history books has failed eventually. .

[Wicky]

Originally posted by CA Stu
"Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society" - Oliver Wendell Holmes.
Anyone that thinks that personal income tax is for generation of revenue for the Feds is not very aware of reality.
The reality is that the tax code is social engineering. Designed to motivate the citizenry into spending their money where the govrernment wants it to be spent.
For example, home mortgage interest is deductible because the governmant wants people to buy houses.
Business loan interest is deductible because the government wants business to invest in itself, so on ands so forth.
Thanks
CA Stu <-- gimme a big pie economy anyday.
Yeah right, and payroll taxes make me want to hire more employees!!!
We need more breaks for us small business guys.
Kerry sure as hell aint gonna do it Mr. Pirate.

[CEO]

Originally posted by carbonmarine
Before I start in.... Please explain how earning that 300K is greedy.?
If a ***boater made 300k, and after the Dems get done with you, you make 125K. They know how to tax us like mothers"
Bush forever, and GW in 2004:D

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
This war is bullshit know matter what excuse y'all finally settle on.
It's NO not Know professor....

[CEO]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
I refuse to endorse a military action that is based on a lie. I already agreed Saddam is a bad guy. The logical target was Somalia and NOT Iraq after Afghanistan. This war is bullshit know matter what excuse y'all finally settle on as a reason.
Then go ahead and hide your head in the sand and hope that all the Terrorists go away peacefully. It's all about "America."

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
I refuse to endorse a military action that is based on a lie. I already agreed Saddam is a bad guy. The logical target was Somalia and NOT Iraq after Afghanistan. This war is bullshit know matter what excuse y'all finally settle on as a reason.
1. The war was not based on a lie. Numerous intelligence organizations including the CIA, MI5, Spain, Russia, Israel, Poland and others provided information that decisions were made on. While the information provided ultimately proved to be less than correct, politicians that were provided that information made decisions based on this intelligence. Why is that a lie?
2. Why would Somalia be THE next logical target? A place without a thread of cohesion, without clearly opposing groups, just a bunch of warlord thugs shooting at each other. If it could be determined that terrorist training was taking place in the country, surgical strikes could be made.
3. This was based on a preponderance of evidence that Saddam had things we did not want falling into the hands of the bin ladens of the world. I do not find any reason for excuse or apology. None whatsoever.

[Jordy]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
We all know Saddam is a bad guy. The lie(s) has/have nothing to do with that.
Except for the 20 attorneys who are defending him. I know for certain that one of them is French, I'm guessing at least 3/4 of them are pussy French scumbags. :rolleyes:
I think France should be the next logical target. After all, they kissed Saddam's ass, just follow the money trail.

[sorry dog]

Been a good while since I participated in one of these but I'm in the mood so...
Lake Pirate I think has some good points about the taxes having to go up. I'm not sure that really has to happen because at 6 years when I was in econ class the transfer payment portion (social security, medicare, etc.) of all taxes was around 65% and the marginal rate for top tax bracket was 60% (I don't remember exactly though). I imagine programs such a perscription drug benefits will increase these numbers as well as the increased spending on security and armed forces - so taxes will have to rise in some way if this trend continues.
Anyway, while I agree our current fiscal policy trends are not so good (I blame either party platform) you can't blame everything on the government.
One of the major problems is that we as country are spending more than we are making. You equity charged Californians might recognize this deal. Here's a quote I quickly dug up:
Morgan Stanley chief economist Stephen Roach sees continued decline in the US net national savings rate. (my emphasis added) This is a story of arithmetic. The accounting identity is often the most powerful of economic constraints. Such a framework is not subject to theoretical interpretations -- the identities simply have to add up, year in and year out. For any nation, saving must always equal investment. Unfortunately, America’s national saving rate is plunging into the danger zone. In the first quarter of 2003, gross national saving -- households, businesses, and government units, combined -- fell to 14.0% of gross national product; that’s down 1.5 percentage points from the year-earlier rate and fully 4.8 percentage points below the post-1960 norm of 18.8%. But that’s only the tip of the iceberg. The problem is that most of America’s national saving now shows up in the form of depreciation -- funds that are earmarked for the replacement of worn-out physical assets. In the first quarter of 2003, such depreciation accounted for fully 94% of total saving. That means that the net national saving rate -- that portion of national saving that is available to fund the actual expansion of productive capacity -- fell to a record low of 0.7% of gross national product in the first period of this year. That’s off sharply from the year-earlier reading of 2.3% and is well short of the nearly 5% average of the 1990s and the 11% norm of the 1960s. There are few macro gauges that tell us more about an economy’s internally generated growth capacity. Sadly, America has all but depleted its reservoir of net saving -- the sustenance of longer-term economic growth. The savings rate is only part of the structural problem in the US economy. Think intuitively about what it means for the US to be running a 5% trade deficit. We are consuming 5% more than we are making. Now, there may be services trade that is hidden that makes that deficit smaller than it seems. But it is not sustainable. American living standards will effectively have to fall (or grow more slowly for a while) in order to bring that back into balance. Roach thinks that the US net national savings rate may shrink to zero or even go negative while the trade deficit simultaneously widens. Roach expects further declines in the trade-weighted value of the dollar by as much as an additional 30%. Only a decline in the dollar can reduce US demand for imported goods and increase world demand for US goods enough to bring US trade back into balance with the world. That would have an inflationary effect on prices in the US and deflationary effects on much of the rest of the world.
I'm not sure I agree totally, but this quote is a year old and some of what he states here seems to progressing such as a weaker dollar. Unfortunately, the trade deficit ain't getting any smaller...
here's a quote from this story - http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/34594.html
Although the current account measure looks at a range of factors, hard goods still accounted for most of the shortfall. The deficit on goods increased to $150.8 billion in the first quarter from $139.4 billion in the fourth quarter. That came despite a healthy increase in the value of goods exported, which rose from $186.9 billion to $193.9 billion, largely on the strength of manufacturing materials and supplies. Imported goods increased more, growing from $326.3 billion to $344.7 billion in the first quarter, with consumer goods as well as industrial supplies making up most of the growth. The United States maintained a surplus in the services category, exporting $13.9 billion more in services than it imported. A surplus also existed in the investment area, but it decreased to $12.7 billion compared to $16.2 billion the quarter before. The deficit in unilateral transfers -- made up primarily of foreign aid payment to emerging economies -- rose to $20.6 billion.
These numbers tell me that most people would rather buy a $125 Haier air conditioner from China than a $180 one made in US (BTW I don't know if any small AC's are still made in the US- just an example). Additionally, if we only have $120 in our pocket, we'll just charge it (or take from previous savings but that gets into wealth accumulation issues which is heavy stuff to me).
The ironic thing to me is that this trend has probably helped support our life style, at least in the short run, in the form of cheaper consumer goods- which helped inflationary trends- which helped our good buddies at the fed keep rate targets low. Looks like this maybe starting to catch up with us. In 2003 China received more foreign direct investment than the US.
I don't think the sky is falling as a falling dollar will help make the US more attractive for foreign investments, but it quite possibly will affect how much stuff your pay check buys. So, I'll agree with L pirate that sooner or later we gotta pay the piper. I just hope I make enough then that there is some leftover for me to play with...
I have other thoughts (like how GM is gonna be #2 in the not so far off future) but I'll save'em up for another day. :D

[sorry dog]

I think my thread killing percentage must be up in the top ten.

[HighRoller]

Why even bother debating with a liberal? They never let "facts" get in the way of their agenda even if you provide them in a clear and concise manner. Numerous people have proven the link between Iraq and Al Quada, proven that Saddam had WMD's and still Lake Pirate spews his rhetoric about "lies". What he's really sore about is that once again he was on the wrong side of the aisle when history was made. So the only way to save face is to somehow discredit the man who did something besides commit adultery on our time.
BTW, LP, before you go calling any person who makes 300K a greedy bastard, look at the FACTS...a person who makes 300K is in the top 1% of wage earners. The top one percent in wage earners pay THIRTY FIVE PERCENT of the tax burden so that tralier park dwellers get a free ride. The top 5 percent pay FORTY NINE PERCENT of all taxes to the treasury. So they can do damn well whatever they want and they'd probably tell you to shut the hell up because you aren't even paying taxes. Do me a favor, ask the owner of the company you work for how much he makes. Odds are, it's a lot. He should be rewarded, not penalized for making the country work. People who make that kind of money aren't "rich snobs". As a matter of fact, 80 percent of millionaires in this country are first generation, self made millionaires with an average lifetime income of 80K a year. Hardly a "greedy bastard" in my book. Learn a little about the people you attempt to denegrate before you open your trap, LP. At least gather some facts before you attempt to tow the tax and spend line through here.
Finally, the problem with deficits is not revenue, it's SPENDING! Isn't it strange that we've had good years and bad years under both Republican and Democrat administrations and nobody has ever managed to balance the budget or even try. It doesn't matter if the treasury revenue goes up 500% next year, Congress will spend every dime of it! They have no concept of "living within your means" because if they have a shortcoming they just print or borrow money to cover it.

[Lake Pirate]

It's hard to argue with somebody when their right. That is why your thread percentage is low. See how many people read your post. That is what is important.

[sorry dog]

It's hard to argue with somebody when their right.
I'm not sure I'm right; I just try to not sound close minded...and on the internet it's pretty easy to argue about most anything (i.e. bench racers).
However, I seriously doubt Kerry and entourage have better solutions than the Bush camp. Either way- in my eyes, both candidates compromise their policies and the "common good of the country" in their election efforts. I thought the presciption drug benefit plan was a pretty ill concept (unfortunately embraced by all constituents) considering the government needs to find ways to cut back on spending and transfer payments since they are alreadly increasing from other forces.
Just ask the Canatards about the current state of their health care funding...

[Lake Pirate]

Hey Dr Eavle ~ I said "their" instead of "they're"? Coulda said "there", might be worse? I'd hate to have to start proof reading...you need to step it up!
Mebbe a few of y'all will join my new party, the "Tom Paine movement." Our policy is to tell the truth no matter how bad it hurts. Since we have no personal record of Thomas Paine outside his publications we are modeling our candidate after Gary Cooper.

[sorry dog]

I'd hate to have to start proof reading
BTW - it's not y'all. It's spelled ya'll.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
you need to step it up!
we are modeling our candidate after Gary Cooper.
Yes you are right... I've been slacking in the proof reading dept.
And My Candidate would be modeled on John Wayne...

[Lake Pirate]

Semantics.
You all = y'all
Ya'll would indicate the first word contained an "a" as in"Yea all" which would then be Ya'll.

[sorry dog]

I'm from Alabama. We invented the word. It's spelled ya'll. Trust me.
(see...you really can argue about most anything on the internet)

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Semantics.
You all = y'all
Ya'll would indicate the first word contained an "a" as in"Yea all" which would then be Ya'll.
Being that it is slang... is there a proper spelling? could it be Ya'all?

[sorry dog]

I think it made it into the last edition of Webster's.
Ah - f uck it. Who cares... were we talking about something important?

[Lake Pirate]

I should have been more specific... we are modeling our candidate after Coopers' characterization of "John Doe." Waynes' character in "The Green Beret" would be a good candidate but "Rooster Cogburn" would not do. Cogburn looked too much like a Pirate. You can't have a president that looks like a pirate. Lord knows I've tried.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
I should have been more specific... we are modeling our candidate after Coopers' characterization of "John Doe." Waynes' character in "The Green Beret" would be a good candidate but "Rooster Cogburn" would not do. Cogburn looked too much like a Pirate. You can't have a president that looks like a pirate. Lord knows I've tried.
Pilgrim........

[sorry dog]

OK
I think maybe now this thread is dead.

[summerlove]

Originally posted by OGShocker
I am at the lake drinking a beer! Sux to be you...LOL :p
GET'EM Carbon'
Actually, the second after I posted I bailed out and played little white ball all afternoon - 3 over! So, no, it was cool being me yesterday:cool:...now, today, that's different!:(

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by sorry dog
OK
I think maybe now this thread is dead.
Thank goodness...... Pilgrim....

[summerlove]

Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Thank goodness...... Pilgrim....
Wow cowboys, I'm online and ready to fire away.....this thread isn't dead until I say it's dead...who's with me????
Actually, I just read all of the threads, and except for a few (CASTU - do not cut and paste from a unrelaible website or someone might call you a child molester!;) ) it was an excellent debate and was one of the best political threads I've seen - legitmate debate on issues - not too much name calling and insults! Good job guys.
On another note, I think you have Lake Pirate misjudged. I think the guy is LOADED and is in that 1% of taxpayers. While I don't want to speak for him or defend his comments, it is my opinion that he has a socially moral conscious - and I appreciate that. I also think that many of you have one also - we just participate in different ways - you want to have a say where your money goes, and we want to ensure that valid, recognizable and beneficial programs receive funding to support programs of social benefit.
Just remember, without taxes everything from local police and fire protection to the US military is paid by taxes - there are so many abuses, we've all heard them before. How do we fix the system, I dunno, but maybe a complete overhall of the syatem is in order.
Regarding the war on terror - it's a well documented fact that in Bush's first days in office he wanted to go after Saddam. 9/11 provided the opportunity. I supported the war on terror and continue to do so. I do not support the war in Iraq, the killing of innocent civilians and the murder of US servicemen and women. While I'm hapy Saddam is gone and out of power, I'm not certain that the end justified the means. We'll never know....
OK, now it (this thread) can end, but I doubt it will....:wink:

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by summerlove
On another note, I think you have Lake Pirate misjudged. I think the guy is LOADED and is in that 1% of taxpayers.
Don't know of too many people that would refer to themselves as a "Bastard" as in rich bastards...
I think you are profoundly mistaken.:p

[Lake Pirate]

"Loaded" is a relative term. Compared to a street person I'm Donald Trump. Compared to Donald Trump, I'm a street person. :D

[summerlove]

Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Don't know of too many people that would refer to themselves as a "Bastard" as in rich bastards...
I think you are profoundly mistaken.:p
I'll bet ya a case of silvers....

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by summerlove
I'll bet ya a case of silvers....
Well, I always was lousey at making predictions... buy you are on...
Where's the best place to buy em in Havasu?;)

[Lake Pirate]

And how do y'all (ya'll) intend to prove/disprove these allegations?

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
And how do y'all (ya'll) intend to prove/disprove these allegations?
Why don't you just send us your tax returns for...... oh ....... say the last 10 years?

[summerlove]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
And how do y'all (ya'll) intend to prove/disprove these allegations?
PM us. I will maintain your confidentality.

[Lake Pirate]

I think we should return to topic and y'all buy each other a twelve pack and drink it together.

[summerlove]

Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Where's the best place to buy em in Havasu?;)
Costco in Carlsbad....;)

[Dr. Eagle]

Wasn't the topic BEER?

[summerlove]

Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Wasn't the topic BEER?
Go back to his first thread about all the boats and toys the guy is selling...I'll tell ya, I'm right. The trailer park is a red herring! But, if he doesn't want to play;) , then that's ok, tonight go buy yourself a 12 pack and I'll buy me one and then we're even steven!:D
Found it....
Major spam alert: I have a ton of crap for sale
I've noticed other people posting their stuff for sale so I figgered it would be ok. I'm bailing on a ton of toys. Some are good deals. Some are ok deals.
Boats:
2003 27' Fountain Fever (w/496 H.O.) all the whistles and bells. About 50 hrs. Comes with trailer and covers. $90,000
2001 22' Baja Hammer (454) comes with trailer and boat lift. It only has 70 hours. Both covers. $22,500
1990 30 ft Regal Commodore. Books for over $30,000. This is a really nice cabin cruiser. Pump out head, ac/heat and full galley. Radar arch. Winter curtains and bimini. White with green trim. Sleeps six. Will take $20,000 for quick sale.
1984 Searay Sundancer 28' Has all covers, air/heat, head, full galley, aft cabin model. All covers. All teak cabin. Really nice condition. Books for $24,000 plus adds. Will take $10,000 for quick sale.
Cars:
1965 Lincoln Continental Convertible. Powder blue w/ blue leather interior. 95 point car. It is the lowest (verifiable) mileage Lincoln Convertible in existence. 16,000 miles. no kidding! Barret-Jackson auction says it's worth $100,000 plus. $I'll take 60,000 if the deal is painless.
1977 Corvette. 65,000 miles. Pretty nice. White w/blue leather. $12,000
1985 1/2 porche 944 ($3500) Guards red. Runs great. Light hail.
1996 Saab Convertible. Black with tan leather. Less than 65,00 miles. $4500
2001 Viper R10 w/GT pck. 13,000 miles. Yellow w/black stripe. faster than a spotted ape. $65,000
Motorcycle:
2003 Big Dog Mastiff 700 mi. Custom paint. Extra seat. $21,500
This is all my stuff. (That I'm selling.) It's either something I bought my wife or something I bought on a whim or in a couple cases something I co-signed for and then had to get back. I have pics of everything so email me at LP.com if you're interested.

[Dr. Eagle]

I'll go buy myself some beer tonight, and tell the wife you told me to!:D

[Lake Pirate]

Actually that post could mean I'm flat broke.

[058]

LP, of course you WILL be paying taxes on the proceeds of your sale, won't you? And in the true spirit of being a liberal you will contribute more than the IRS requests....right?:rolleyes:

[Lake Pirate]

Where does it say liberals pay more than what they are do? It's not in my anarchists handbook? Maybe I should turn over all profits to PETA? Ya happy now?

[058]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Where does it say liberals pay more than what they are do? It's not in my anarchists handbook? Maybe I should turn over all profits to PETA? Ya happy now? PETA is good....or perhaps the Sierra Club......I'm happy now.:D

[Lake Pirate]

Replace "do" with "due". Thanks in advance. :D

[summerlove]

Originally posted by 058
LP, of course you WILL be paying taxes on the proceeds of your sale, won't you? And in the true spirit of being a liberal you will contribute more than the IRS requests....right?:rolleyes:
technically, the buyer will pay the sales tax, not the seller....;)

[summerlove]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Actually that post could mean I'm flat broke.
don't think so....;)

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by summerlove
technically, the buyer will pay the sales tax, not the seller....;)
True.. and the IRS isn't involved.
The State of California calls it "Use Tax" when you register it at the DMV.

[058]

Originally posted by summerlove
technically, the buyer will pay the sales tax, not the seller....;) S.L. Lake Pirate will still be libal for taxes on profit of said property. Buyer is libal for sales tax only.

[summerlove]

Originally posted by 058
S.L. Lake Pirate will still be libal for taxes on profit of said property. Buyer is libal for sales tax only.
I bet ya there's no profit...even if that Lincoln was purchased as a beater for 10K and he sells it for 60K, there's the cost to restore. If he does make money, then yes,, you're right. But, I've never had any capital gains on anything other than property!

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by 058
S.L. Lake Pirate will still be libal for taxes on profit of said property. Buyer is libal for sales tax only.
Generally speaking, items like boats, cars, airplanes do not appreciate. It's unlikely that LP will have any tax liability to the Feds on anything he sells.

[Lake Pirate]

I'm firing my CPA and staying on-line. :)

[BUSTI]

Thank God liberalism is dead in America! Oh with the likes of Commiemando and lefty pirate the left at times makes noise.but really their kind of political thought is dead!
The proof that right thinking Conservativism is the predominant prevailing thought in America is in the pure and simple fact that in the last 28 years the Demorats have only won 2 major elections! And those were Bill Clinton's elections. The demorats only won those elections due to a rare set of circumstances known as Ross Pero. In both elections more people voted against Bill than voted for him. Once elected Bill promptly lost Congress and the Republicans have won ever since.
The country is in a massive shift away from liberalism not towards it. Lefties like lefty pirate can only snipe around then issues. They have no real suggestions on how to make things better.........like their pop leader now, Michael Moore they can only use lies distort facts and or just cry over the facts that their way of thinking is in the minority. When faced with facts or real suggestions they can only make witless humor attacking the conservative that offered the suggestion.
Feel sorry for the liberals because they are self loathing and people of despair. When real conservatives offer a bright view of America they can only redicule............the leftys are pathetic because they go through life always so unhappy.
just read the shit this idiot lefty spews out.........do you think he is a very happy person. His glass is always half full and his posts and comments are always negative about his world and America. All libs should be pittied as their world is always so grim. Every conservative I know is far more happy with their life, their lcountry and their prospects for the their childrens future.
As I said earlier libs derive far to much happiness or lack of it on what their government does for them and conservatives derive their happiness from what they do for themselves.
Did you read this leftys response to my post earlier. Think like lefty pirate and you are destined to go through life unhappy, think like me, Dr. Eagle, Carbon and other right thinking people on this board and I am sure you will be far happier and more productive.
I am 54 years old and I have heard this lefty shit since the 60's and the message hasn't changed................it was mindless negative feelings bullshit supported by left dogma that offered no real thoughts supported by reason.
The left is dead and so are their ideas.
Hey lefty pirate try and offer some real ideas for the future would you please!

[MagicMtnDan]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Just out of curiosity where do you guys think the money comes from to pay for your multi trillion dollar war and the general cost of running the government?
You do realize the army is a non profit deal? There is no "spoils of war."
Tax and spend, tax and spend, that's all you liberals/democrats want to do. How about expecting MORE from our government - like demanding that they CUT spending and GET MORE for our money. Liberal politicians typically have no business experience so they only think of increasing their ability to SPEND our money. They don't think like business people - balancing a budget, not spending more than you take in, those are all foreign concepts to you and your left wing buddies.
Look at what Ted (I-was-drunk-and-killed-a-girl-I-was-partying-with-while-my-wife-was-home) Kennedy and John (the-most-liberal-senator-in-the-US) Kerry did with the "Big Dig" project in Boston. They increased that project from about $5 BILLION to about $15 BILLION and NEVER ONCE did they investigate where the money went! The corruption they fostered is probably unparalleled in the United States. BILLIONS of our tax dollars went to mostly union workers who didn't earn the money (one welder earned $180,000 in a year by filing bogus overtime reports). You liberals have too much of our money and don't know how to spend, manage, or account for it!
Lake Pirate, you're a wallet pirate, and Hillary really doesn't care about the poor or education - it's about income redistribution and BUYING VOTES by giving lip service to the poor and people with kids in schools.
Job creation and getting more for the billions that are already being paid into the education "system" is what will make a difference. Hillary taking our money to get her elected (it's what the democrats do best) is NOT what this country is about.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
I'm firing my CPA and staying on-line. :)
I don't think I'd do that... I can't fire mine... just because of one damn stock fund I have left. Otherwise it'd be Turbotax for me!

[Lake Pirate]

Ummm...Mr Busti verbose person ~ I have offered ideas and solutions. My only recommendation to you is to read other posts, as opposed to assuming you already know what they say. (C&P's notwithstanding.) :D
I try to be considerate in spite of dark overwhelming compulsions to commit suicide or end the world. Am I too old to be a goth?

[058]

Originally posted by summerlove
I bet ya there's no profit...even if that Lincoln was purchased as a beater for 10K and he sells it for 60K, there's the cost to restore. If he does make money, then yes,, you're right. But, I've never had any capital gains on anything other than property! Just making a point....:D

[Lake Pirate]

Magicmountainguy ~ I see you live in California. How's the Ahnold going to pay for the ten billion y'all just approved...I mean since your state coffers are in the minus? You're right about 'ol Georgie pooh also. What a brilliant economist he turned out to be. He took a balanced budget and spent more money his first six months in office than any other President in history. (Some who had two terms.) Our national debt is at an all time high with no recourse in action for resupply. What time is it on Mars? You're definitely living on a different planet than the rest of us.

[058]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Magicmountainguy ~ I see you live in California. How's the Ahnold going to pay for the ten billion y'all just approved...I mean since your state coffers are in the minus? You're right about 'ol Georgie pooh also. What a brilliant economist he turned out to be. He took a balanced budget and spent more money his first six months in office than any other President in history. (Some who had two terms.) Our national debt is at an all time high with no recourse in action for resupply. What time is it on Mars? You're definitely living on a different planet than the rest of us. LP, If you want to see how liberalism works come to Calif. and see what Grey Davis and the Democratic legislature did to the economy of this once great state. Liberalism and Communism, is there any difference?

[ROZ]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Actually that post could mean I'm flat broke.
No, Flat Broke lives here in Kaleefornia. You're in Taxas...:D

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by Lake Pirate
Magicmountainguy ~ I see you live in California. How's the Ahnold going to pay for the ten billion y'all just approved...I mean since your state coffers are in the minus? You're right about 'ol Georgie pooh also. What a brilliant economist he turned out to be. He took a balanced budget and spent more money his first six months in office than any other President in history. (Some who had two terms.) Our national debt is at an all time high with no recourse in action for resupply. What time is it on Mars? You're definitely living on a different planet than the rest of us.
Democrats (by the way I'm still registered as one) screwed up our state royaly. Believe it or not Arnold has done a pretty good job in starting to clean up the mess they have left for him, esp when you take into account that they still control our dysfunctional legislature. One thing that will help the state budget is that they are getting a cash boost from these high gas prices. And his deal with the Indian casinos won't hurt the state budget either.

[Lake Pirate]

I can't go to California. There's a price on my head there. Maybe in seven years? :D