058, you got a digital camera? maybe you can take a pic of the article and post it?
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058, you got a digital camera? maybe you can take a pic of the article and post it?
Oh Chevy is in the house......and in all the fast boats :argue: . It costs a lot less to build a 800 hp BBC than any other big block.
Word!!!
Now you did it... :D
Oh Chevy is in the house......and in all the fast boats :argue: . It costs a lot less to build a 800 hp BBC than any other big block.
Word!!!
If its the article I am thinking of, the above statement rings true. I think the Ford guy outspent the Chevy guy, and of course the Mopar was the most expensive.
To quote my friend,
"Why is it Chevy guys just drive their boats, Olds guys just drive their boats, Mopar guys just drive their boats (well, most of the time and get a lot of attention if its a hemi), but Ford guys can't shut up about how much better Fords are than the others."
Note that he is knocking Ford guys, like they are trying to prove something :crossx: :D :wink:
It was a 540 with 300 rods offset ground crank with a 850 setting on top of it. I think it was in hot boat. I think it dynoed @ 725+ on pump gas.
and thanks for the reply. JD
Where are the chevy guys? :D
We are here. :) I'd like to see the article, increase my trivia knowledge maybe. :idea:
Engine Masters Magazine did a Big Block 3-way Shootout. I found it on the web. Here is part 4, the engines are all built, described, and ready to dyno. I'll post the Part 5 article next.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...rbb/index.html
Big-Block Shootout Part 4
Sizing Up The Competition
By Scott Parkhurst
All three of our entrants are assembled and ready to face off at Westech's dyno facility. The Pfaff 454 Chevy, Landy 440 Mopar, and AEW 460 Ford were all meticulously crafted to deliver maximum horsepower on pump gas. We have leveled the playing field as well as we can by forcing all three engines to run the same-size carburetor (a Speed Demon 850-cfm, mechanical secondary), the same gasoline (92-octane pump premium) through the same exhaust system (with twin Hooker Aerochamer 3.5-inch muffs, PN 1502). All three dyno runs will be on the same day, in the same shop, with the same air (humidity and pressure could make a difference). The builders of all three engines will be present, along with PHR staffers and neutral dyno shop personnel.
Before we hop in the proverbial ring to let the contestants brawl, we figured it would be wise (and fun) to give a scouting report. We did a little research, and had some fun with the Mr. Gasket Desktop Dyno program in predicting the outcome of the Shootout. We also wanted to provide readers with complete listings of all the major parts used on all the engines, with part numbers, to make duplicating these engines as easy as possible. Naturally, we'd encourage working with Summit Racing, since they worked so hard to stay within our guidelines and design some excellent engine packages, and get the parts to us under very tough deadlines.
We'll take a look at each engine and get opinions from the builders on their finished product. We'll then share the computer estimates and our own opinions before listing the goodies Summit provided for us. We'd also like to thank General Motors Performance Parts for supplying the Chevy 454 block, crank, and connecting rods for the 454 Chevy. We feel they didn't get enough representation in the Chevy buildup, and it's important that readers know about the top-notch parts available from their local dealers and mail order sources.
So, let's jump in and ask the builders how they feel about their combinations, then we'll let the games begin. You'll have to check in with us next month to see what went down, and if you haven't sent a card in to enter this contest yet, it should be apparent you're running out of time to do so. Send in that card!
PAUL PFAFF RACING ENGINES
We spoke with shop chief Gordon Jennings, who not only assembled the engine, but will be personally tuning it as well. "We're pushing for 7,000 rpm, which we feel is necessary to beat the other guys. We're going to have to see at least 6,500. We've not pushed a hydraulic roller that hard before, but we will now. We've also been playing with the tuning on Demon carbs to get a better idea about where we'd like to be on that. We know where our timing needs to be, and we know what the Merlin heads like, so fine-tuning won't be too difficult."
"Without a doubt, this will be fun. We're dyno-tuning ours at the shop first to get it all dialed in, but as of right now, we haven't. We fully expect to see 600 horses, maybe more. How much more, we can't say yet. But it'll be a runner, and a hell of a strong street motor."
By representing the most popular make of engine at the Shootout, Gordon knows he's got plenty of enthusiasts keeping an eye on his work. He shows no fear, and this confidence is bolstered by the hundreds of big-blocks he's built over the last decade. Quick to smile, and always busy, look for Gordon's experience (and Pfaff's precision assembly and machine tooling) to pay big dividends.
DICK LANDY INDUSTRIES
Our Indy-headed 440 was initially thought to be the dark horse, but after getting a solid roller cam, things perked up quickly. Considering the cubic- inch sacrifice and other issues we mentioned in the story, this move is justified. We commented on Landy's thoughts regarding hydraulic rollers for the 440, and he wished to clarify a few things for us now.
"Hydraulic rollers aren't necessarily an issue in 440s, but the higher-lift stuff (more than .500-inch), we've had some bad luck there. There may have been some miscommunication about that in the story we wanted to clear up. The Crane hydraulic roller stuff is fine under .500-inch lift, the parts are top-notch. But, we feel to run more than .500 with a hydraulic roller, oil control mods are necessary."
So, to correct ourselves and polish the facts, hydraulic roller camshafts are fine in big-block Mopars with lift numbers in the .500-inch range. The Crane hydraulic roller lifter design can be used without concern in non-modified lifter bores with these correct cams. Our apologies to Crane and Landy for the misunderstanding.
Beyond that, Landy said "Due to our shaft-mounted rocker design, we're limited on how radical the cam profile can get. Using the same lobe profile with 1.5:1 ratio is a limiting factor, and we can go to 1.6:1 without much issue, but to go to 1.8:1 like the Chevy guys or Ford guys can; we can't do that. It's a big deal, and it gets very expensive with a Mopar."
The Mopar should have gained an advantage of a few rpm with the cam design, and the Indy heads will certainly deliver the goods upstairs. Will it be enough to overcome both the Chevy and the Ford? Only time will tell.
ADVANCED ENGINEERING WEST (AEW)
The Ford camp was lucky we chose AEW to build the 460. As we reported last month, Mark Sanchez (the owner of AEW) is a passionate fan of the 429/460, and his experience in tuning the biggest-displacement engine in our contest will certainly fare well for Ford fans. Initially, we'd planned to run Ford Racing's own Cobra Jet aluminum head, but after discussing the matter at length with Summit Racing, it was decided the Edelbrock Performer RPM head would serve us better for less expense. The Edelbrock head was designed to compete with the Cobra Jet casting, and does so for $500 less per pair. We felt this would be of benefit for our readership, and since there was no sacrifice in power potential (especially once AEW ran the Edelbrock RPM heads through their porting procedures), we're anxious to see how they fare against the competition. Mark feels positive about it too.
"I'd not seen the Edelbrock heads before, and they look good. I like the design, and I plan on working them in the same manner I would the Cobra Jets. I have a few ideas on tuning this combination I'm confident will make big power. We'll make close to 600, maybe more if we get the tune-up right. We've got a good combination; there's plenty of good parts here."
Another change was made to the engine, as further research proved our camshaft combination would not work as we'd hoped. We wanted to combine a hydraulic roller lifter with a cam designed to run solid rollers, but it simply will not work. COMP Cams told us our grind was simply too aggressive for the hydraulic rollers to deal with, and with time ticking away at us, we were forced to simply substitute the hydraulic rollers for the solid rollers the cam was designed to work with. The Crane lifters are excellent pieces when used with the cams they were designed for, but our aggressive attempt at mixing solid designs with hydraulic pieces was not to be, and we apologize for the inaccuracy.
No one knows how the final story will play out, but Mark doesn't even seem shaken by the competition. In working with him, we saw a guy focused purely on his own efforts and not worrying about what anyone else had going on. The other builders asked a few questions about the opposition's engines while we were working with them, but Mark didn't. Like a drag racer, he knows he's racing the track, not the car in the next lane. Mark is facing the dyno itself more than the competition.
THE HIGH-TECH CRYSTAL BALL
Mr. Gasket's Desktop Dyno software has become an important tool in choosing matching engine combinations for several years now. Updates to the original program have made the once-tricky task of designing complete engines much simpler, and predicting the effects of different camshafts or cylinder heads is a breeze. It's not to see when you've got too much cam or when you need more carb cfm.
We really like this program, and when matched with Mr. Gasket's Desktop Dragstrip, it allows hot rodders the chance to build and test their cars long before spending their money on what might have been the wrong combination.
We decided to plug in our figures from the Big-Block Shootout and see who the software chose to win. There are a few variables we cannot account for in the software, however. We told you the engine builders would be limited to 92-octane pump gas, which would normally limit compression ratios to about 9.5:1. Since we're running aluminum heads, the heat absorption properties of the heads will allow for a bit more compression. Also, since these engine shops are all intimately-familiar with their engines of choice, we're confident they'd know where the hot spots were in the combustion chambers and be able to work them out as well.
The bottom line is that these experts are very capable of creating engines with more than 9.5:1 compression that will work just fine on pump gas, and we don't know how far each of them can go, or did go. There are some things they wouldn't share with us, and this critical measurement is one of those factors. We know all of the heads got some port work, and chamber shaping is part of that deal, but we did not force them to determine compression ratio for us with cameras popping. We felt that if any of these builders knows how to make big power on pump gas, they would do so here, and how they did so was up to them. Certainly, we've made the rules here, but we wanted to give each builder a chance to do what they do best, and this engineering is certainly part of it.
Once the contest is completed, we'll ask again where each compression ratio ended up, and if they're willing to share, we'll let you know. For now, let's ask the software.
The Desktop Dyno software offers many different options to accurately predict the power and torque your engine will produce. It's only as accurate as the information fed into it, and we found it enlightening. To get the most accurate power prediction, we'd have to enter cylinder head flow information we simply do not have at this time. Instead, we've substituted cylinder head design information and valve sizes, along with a default estimate on the amount of work done to each engine's heads. We lumped the Mopar and Ford entrants together, describing both of their head designs as "Fully Ported Wedge." The Chevy, by design, is more accurately described as a "Rectangular Port-Canted valve with Pocket Porting". Naturally, the program gives greater flow potential (and therefore power numbers) to the Chevy design. While this is not inaccurate information, the Chevy engine is credited with a significantly-larger power estimate than its competition. We know we could have come closer to our reality with complete flow information, and without the time constraints of completing these series of stories, we could have developed much more accurate estimates. We don't feel our numbers are way off, but we don't feel they represent the accuracy the Desktop Dyno program is capable of either.
So, the computer feels the canted-valve/big-port Bow Tie motor will win. Many of our readers and several insiders agree, but we're not so fast to judge. The big-inch Ford certainly has the potential to scream, if Mark's tuning tricks all work. The Mopar's solid roller cam will open the door to higher rpm potential, and if Dick can tweak it to keep making power past 6,500 rpm, it could sneak by the other two motors on the power scale. Certainly, the power peak won't be up that high, but moving the entire scale up a notch could result in a higher peak power number.
Other than it's just a barrel of monkey's giving the Ford guys a ration... they get so defensive... :argue: :D
I believe Car Craft did a camparison on how much it cost to build X amount of horse power several years ago... All of the engine makes came out pretty much dead even. Pretty sure Ford and Chevy were dollar for HP dead even. I wish I could find that issue right now...
http://www.popularhotroddingweb.com/...s/0110_phr_bb/
Big-Block Shootout: Pt 5
The Results are In!
By Scott Parkhurst
Photography: Scott Parkhurst , Mike Petralia , Randy Fish , Scott Council
It was an interesting way to start the morning; walking in to the Westech dyno shop and seeing the three monster Big-Block Shootout V-8s fully decked-out for battle assured one unshakable truth: It was going to be a fun day. Obviously, we have been working toward this goal for about six months now, and the planning began much earlier still, so to see the results all together in the same place brought several feelings out. The first and foremost feeling was relief.
Relief meant all three engines were completed on time and had been transported to the right shop on the right day. Relief meant all three engine builders were present and confident about their creations. Relief meant John Baechtel told us he'd secured all of the necessary exhaust, bellhousing, flywheel, and dyno input shaft changes required to run all three engines in one long day on his excellent SuperFlow engine dyno. Now, it was time for some eagerly-awaited anticipation and excitement.
THE FORD 460
Mark Sanchez of Automotive Engineering West crafted the Dearborn representative to our event. His final incarnation of the 460 certainly delivered the goods. Once final tuning and timing had been accomplished, the largest-displacement V-8 entered in our contest had churned out 618 hp (at 6,100 rpm) and 554 lb-ft of torque at 4,600 rpm. The torque curve needs a new name, as it had very little curvature at all. From our beginning sample rpm of 3,500 all the way to 6,500 where we stopped, the 460 cranked out over 500 lb-ft. Mark Sanchez was satisfied with the results, but still wanted more.
"We flowed the heads after they had been pocket ported, and we got about 315 cfm out of them. We feel these heads are capable of 630 hp and our 618 number shows we're close. Still, that's plenty of power for 92 octane, and whoever wins this engine better have some serious suspension under the car."
You may also notice a Weiand Stealth intake manifold under the Demon, as opposed to the Edelbrock Victor unit we described in the engine build a couple months ago. This switch was a last-minute replacement when Mark was about to port the intake, and discovered it was designed for a 429 SCJ, not the 460. The port misalignment was severe, of course, so the Stealth was the only intake he had readily available to port match.
"I know I'll be sacrificing some top end by going to the dual plane, but the Stealth is about the best dual-plane I've worked with. If there is a sacrifice, it will be small and it will be on the very top end. We added the 1-inch spacer on top of the intake for more plenum volume, and I feel this combination will actually gain more in the midrange than we'd lose on the top end. This contest is about peak power, but please take a good look at our torque curve. I think you'll like what you see."
We did look at the torque curve and as Mark predicted, it was amazingly flat. This Ford may not have won the Shootout, but we're sure it'll win some fans on the street.
THE CHEVY 454
Being one of the most popular big-blocks ever, the 454 Chevy is loaded with both potential and the aftermarket expertise to exploit it. Certainly we've shown you plenty of solid big-block buildups here in PHR, but we could only estimate the final power outputs on our giveaway Rat. We all hovered around the 625hp-range, and as the 454 began to sing on the dyno, we were all silenced as numbers in the 640 range popped up on the screen. We got even more pumped up when we compared the fuel flow between the front and rear bowls, and determined the motor wanted more gas. We knew even greater power would follow.
After giving the bad Bow Tie all it wanted to drink, the final reward was 657 hp at both 6,300 and 6,400 rpm. Like the Ford, the Chevy pulled more than 500 lb-ft of torque from 3,500-6,500 rpm, peaking at 562 at 5,800 rpm.
We were very happy with these numbers, especially considering they were produced by a hydraulic-roller equipped 454 on pump gas! Our own Red Line 540ci Merlin laid down 670 hp in a similar configuration, but required the added cost of a stroker crank and a solid roller setup to do so. This 454 was built with a GM Performance Parts block, crankshaft, and connecting rods, so you can see the potential of the big-block hiding in your garage. Engine builder Paul Pfaff was pleased with the performance.
"You know we're going to give you hell about giving us a hydraulic roller when the other guys had solids, right? But, we did really well. We'd tested this engine on our own dyno and got about 640 out of it without fine-tuning. We knew it was a good one, but we didn't know if 640 would be enough to win this thing. Seeing 657 horses here is really good, especially on 92 octane."
Paul is right about the hydraulic roller, as the Chevy was the only engine to have one. The Ford and Mopar ended up with solid rollers, but that wasn't the plan. Initially, we'd hoped to have hydraulic rollers in all three engines, and since the Chevy was assembled first, the plan was still fine then. Once the Mopar and the Ford had determined their camshaft needs were far beyond the range of off-the-shelf hydraulic rollers currently available for their respective engines, we conceded and gave them solids. However, the specifications on all the cams were similar.
To try and level the playing field a little, the Chevy was given an electric water pump for its pulls while the Mopar and Ford were forced to turn their pumps with belt-driven pulleys, which we knew would cost some power.
THE MOPAR 440
Dick Landy showed up with plenty on his mind. His brother and business partner Mike Landy had been hurt in a non-racing-related accident a few days earlier, and Dick needed to get to the hospital to see him. His condition had improved since the accident, but things were still pretty serious. We shared his concern and hoped to have some good news for Dick to bring Mike.
The 440 fired easily and idled wonderfully at 850 rpm. It had the most civilized idle of all three engines, and we were about floored when the 440s first pull delivered 653 horses before any tuning. We asked Dick if he'd tuned the engine on his own in-house dyno, and he said he hadn't, due to a computer glitch and the issues with his brother. After adding a bit of timing and leaning out the jets a bit, the Mopar came to life on the top end. The final tally was the death knell for the competition, as the underrated 440 screamed up to 6,800 rpm after delivering 684 hp! The Mopar won on all counts, maintaining 582 lb-ft of torque at 5,500-5,800 rpm. We've never seen a naturally-aspirated 92-octane 440 ever make power like this before, and we were duly impressed.
"These things run pretty good. We know the heads can breathe up there. They're not as good as the B1s, but they can run well. Our valvetrain isn't nice and easy to change ratios on like the other guys, but it is really stable since it's a shaft setup. We can't go much past 1.6:1 without it costing a lot. Where are the other guys? 1.7:1, 1.8:1? We're at 1.6:1, and that's it. So, we're happy it did well. I'd have liked one of those electric water pumps too. We've done back-to-back tests, and that's worth at least 20 horses on a 440."
Even after winning our Shootout, Dick was still looking for more horsepower. If there's any question why he's become a legend in the racing business, here's a bit more proof. We didn't need any more evidence, but we heartily congratulate Dick and all the crew at DLI for their victory, and we send our best wishes to Mike Landy for a speedy recovery!
THE PLAYING FIELD
How level did we make it? We did the best we could. By working at Westech, we took great strides toward equality before ever firing the first engine. The SuperFlow engine dyno at Westech has gained a reputation for being stingy. It's been accused of reading low, but its calibration is checked on a regular basis and we know the powers-that-be at SuperFlow keep a close eye on it. Our experience has shown that it is always in a perfect state of calibration and its numbers can be relied on. The technicians at Westech understand the importance of accurate testing, and they also know how horsepower claims can sometimes be inflated. For this reason, they've nicknamed their dyno "The Polygraph Room," since it's proven to be quite the lie detector.
As you've already read, the Chevy has an electric water pump to offset the gains the Ford and Mopar had by getting solid roller cams. We also were forced to work with correction factors in determining final horsepower numbers, as the humidity and air temperature were both high on the day of the Shootout. The dyno was recalibrated prior to each engine's run, as opposed to just doing it once in the morning or running on previously determined values. All three engines also breathed through Hooker Super Competition headers and Flowmaster mufflers. By keeping exhaust products consistent and from the same manufacturers, we hoped to further even things out. All three engines also used the exact same Demon 850 carburetor (we transferred it from engine-to-engine) and burned gasoline from the same tank of Union 76 Premium. The same MSD ignition box was hooked up to all three ignition systems.
Could we have made it any fairer? Certainly, if the Chevy had a solid roller and a belt-driven water pump, we could say yes, but considering the task we had, we feel we did all we could to provide an absolutely even contest. Our sincerest thanks go out to all those who made this contest possible, including all at Summit Racing (especially Joel Fishel and Carl Prets), GM Performance Parts (especially Gary Penn), and to Dick and Mike Landy, Paul Pfaff and Gordon Jennings, and Mark Sanchez. A special thanks goes out to John Baechtel and his great crew at Westech. We promise the harassing phone calls will stop now.
ANALYSIS
So, what else did we find out about our combatants? We encouraged all of our engine builders to take advantage of their experience as much as possible. According to the builders, the Ford 460 had about 9.5:1 compression, the Chevy 454 had about 9.8:1, and the Mopar 440 had over 10:1. The expertise of our builders and the amount of attention they paid to the piston tops and combustion chambers accounts for the ability of these engines to run on 92-octane with higher compression. Surely, the aluminum heads contributed to the antidetonation characteristics, but none of our engines ever showed any signs of being close. We never had to back timing off to avoid knock.
The contest was developed to showcase the positive points of each engine design when compared to rival designs of similar displacement. If it's possible to tweak Indy cylinder heads to run over 10:1 compression ratio on 92-octane, you need to know this. Certainly, Dick Landy worked hard to get the power curve up higher on the rpm scale by effectively matching components to run up high, but the added compression fueled the fire. The port sizing and high-angle, single-plane intake were all designed with high-rpm in mind, so it came as no surprise the Mopar wanted to sing higher than 6,500 rpm, where the Chevy's hydraulic roller nosed over and beyond the optimal flow point of the Ford design.
We hope you've enjoyed seeing these three excellent street engines come together, and we're very pleased with the final results. We were hoping for power numbers in the 600-horse range, and we ended up with much more than that. The readers who win these engines will be more than impressed, and we hope we've been able to provide valuable tips on each of the big three's big-blocks. Again, we'd like to thank Summit Racing for their support, and we encourage readers to use all of the services offered by Summit. They want you to be happy with your purchases, and if you give them the opportunity to help you fine-tune your design, they will.
557 cu. inch out of stock block Ford. How many inches out of a BOWTIE?
557 cu. inch out of stock block Ford. How many inches out of a BOWTIE?
That's so the blue-oval crowd can make up the power difference... :D :D :idea: