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Today I was talking to a friend that was very knowlegable about the crash and shared some facts about the crash.Normally they would have run the boat away from the dam but the wind was going the wrong way so they switched.All the people in the boat had to stand up as there was no interior in the boat.At 80 miles per hour there should be at least 1 person survive the crash so he thought the 80 mph estimate was very low as the estimate came from spectators from the shore.He thought that because the boat had sunk so close to the dam that they were trying to get every last mph top speed and misjugded how close they were to the dam.They ran out of drag strip.I've been headed twards a dam and I just missed it head on.I was only going 80 mph in a 19 foot tunnel.It scared the shi* out of me.All I can say about the crash is ouch!!!
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Doug, the WindBlows Across the side of Castaic.. That day it might have been backwards but either way it would be coming from the side wouldn't it? When they showed the footage on the news it didn't look like it was that close to the dam either, it looked like it happened what would normally be at the end of Speed Alley (Heading away from the dam).
RD
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Wow, standing up in a cat at those speeds would be a scary thing.
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Imagine doin it at 150.
RD
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I went to Castaic the sunday after the crash and the fishing leg was closed... the east side of the lake, and it seemed like the were heading away from te dam... when i take my friends speed bot out that is the best place for speed because it is alot calmer over there... i guess when the were testing the boat they thought the same thing...too bad RIP
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Let me tell you guy's it is scary harry going at those speeds, the fastest i went was D.C.B 22 twin 2.5 drags around 115 couldent really see the speedo, but when we came to a stop i could and its not fun, you start thinking about alot of things, i have done a few rides like that, the scary ones are when some one says, hey want to go for a ride? and you gust gump in a boat really not knowing the driver, or the boat, always use safty first, life line vest, bell helmet. you never know?
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I've heard the same thing no interior, one seat driver side. Also heard that one motor and drive are out of the boat.
Running out of lake! could be, but steve had alot of seat time running very high speeds.
[This message has been edited by DMB (edited January 17, 2002).]
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I'm not buyin the theory that they were running out of lake and took some sort of evasive action.. I also don't think they were doing any real high speed runs that day.. Maybe 90mph at the most. There was up to 30mph winds out that day, when I talked to Mr.Pumps on the phone I could hardly hear a word he was saying becuse it was so windy. I think they were just going out to play on the lake for a few hours, and a "freak" accident, or a combination of things happened to make it go wrongside up. I don't believe that we will ever be able to attribute it to one thing. It will be similar to an airplane crash, where one thing led to another, to another, to another etc.. etc.. and then it went over. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif
RD
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How deep is Castaic.240 feet is very deep.It is about that deep at Lake Berryessa at the dam in Northern California.I scuba dive and having to take 70 minutes to come up must be boring.The divers must be using Nitrox.What force it must of taken to rip a motor out of the boat.It had 1000 HP and it stayed in the boat.Is there any wonder there was no survivors left.RIP
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 17, 2002).]
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Know what,no one really knows right now just a bunch of speculation,anything could have happend.
But I tell you this, if I had to get in an HTM and do 150 MPH or even 125+ I would put my life in steves hands.
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Originally posted by RiverDave2:
I'm not buyin the theory that they were running out of lake and took some sort of evasive action..
I agree! Steve of all people knew that lake and it's distance limits.
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Originally posted by DMB:
Know what,no one really knows right now just a bunch of speculation,anything could have happend.
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It occured to me that if the GPS they were using is recovered and could be made to work again, their max. speed may finally come to light and (if it has a "tracks" feature like my Garmin eTrex) their entire course on the lake might have been plotted. It's as close as it comes to having a "Black Box" as found on airliners.
At any rate, I agree that only time will tell.
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I had that very thought the other day.
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[I am a proud owner of an SR24 and am also horrified by what has happened. My family was fortunate to have met such a strong willed man as steve and he will never be forgotten. Last summer my son Tommy was the regatta prince and we had a blast.Just before the regatta steve had a similar incident that he told me about were he worned me to always check my belts and to always wear the safety cutoff switch. He had very bad bruising to his right side becouse the power steering belt broke and he lost steering which he said threw him into a immediate left turn slamming him into the right side of his boat at the throttle and steering wheel.Gentlemen we have unanswered questions here but from my experiences with steve his risk factor was always with safety in mind and he would not sacrifice his love for family for a few more mph. Our boating family will miss him
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 17, 2002).][/B][/QUOTE]
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The area by the Dam is the deepest part of the lake. It's way way deeper than 300'. I would think they were not close to the dam.
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just an update,was informed by a very good source that the divers found both motor/drives,1 was about 10-15 from boat,the other was further back,transom not intact,divers aslo found a hole in one side,still no luck in finding the others,hope that they find them soon for the families.
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A whole in one side?
Oh my god... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif
RD
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Hello i'm a htm owner .The boat was no where near the dam.They were either coming from the narrows or going towards the narrows.The boat is bouied off right now you can see the bouie from the ramp.Ken Lane's funerial was Thursday ,I spoke with his wife on Wednesday she was so pleased to hear about the memorial fund.Ken had alot of great friends.
see ya
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Something to throw out there. Steve and crew had hundreds, probably thousands of hours running 24' single engine rockets.
Running a 30' twin engine rocket is a different animal. Safety equipment would have been critical. Would've been like driving a car in England after living in the US for 40-50 years.
I think we've seen a good example of what not to do here. We don't have all the facts, but it seems evident that all of the clues point towards a situation of poor judgement and lack of experience in craft safety preparation.
One of the questions asked by insurance companies for performance boat insurance is "How much time in comparable watercraft"?
Running 24' single engine rockets may have made them feel like they could "Handle anything".
It's a sad situation we hopefully all can learn from. Engage brains before starting engine(s).
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HauliAZZ, why would safety equipment be critical in a 30 and not a 24? and what makes you think that was the first time or first 30 foot boat that steve and ken had run.
Theres nothing evident or any clues to anything so far that led to this tragic accident.
How bout the best of parts can fail,engines blow,props throw blades,drives braking,a Fu*&kin bird hit him in the head.
NO ONE KNOWS YET,WHY ALWAYS DRIVER Error.
[This message has been edited by DMB (edited January 18, 2002).]
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I love how everyone becomes an expert on what NOT to do. Get off your soapbox, go to the corner of your room, stare at the wall and think about what you did that was wrong...and be quiet.
Four men who loved boating died doing what they were passionate about. Enough second guessing and let it go. There isn't an expert among us who can say exactly what happened.
Mr. Earnhart died last year in a tragic accident, who can say Dale wasn't an expert at racing? Shit happens, I have been riding motorcycles since I was a kid. I graduated to very fast street bikes, crashed a few times, and I am still here. When it is your time, it is your time.
Space Shuttle, even the best engineered vehicle failed with HUNDREDS, even THOUSANDS of experts behind it.
I can't believe adults bickering over what SHOULD have been done, or what COULD have happened. How would you feel if YOUR loved one had passed away and you were reading these boards...what would you be thinking?
These men all had families and people that loved them that are now left alone and behind. We need to be thinking of these people. When I get my boat wet come spring in Havasu this year, I want to meet all these people I read about, and I want to see memorial stickers an the sides of everyone's boats.
Anything over 100 on the water if f-ing fast, I have to respect anyone pushing the envelope. These people make the boats we all drive safer at any speed.
In 1950 would anyone envision a Corvette,Viper,or liter class Motorcycles doing 200 mph stock? I think not.
EVERYTHING we do in life is a risk, EVERYTHING. Some embrace it...
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Wsuwrhr, VERY WELL STATED!!!!
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I second that, very well said. Hope to meet you to...
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Who said safety equipment isn't a good idea for running blistering speeds in a 24'? What I said was, running a NEW craft (30' with twins) speeds RARELY seen made safety equipment CRITICAL. The 30' only debuted last year with a single engine (although Mills was a twin). Unless I've been asleep in a cave somewhere, you can count on 1 hand the 30's that have been built and none of them have been capable of chasing 150 MPH mark.
I've owned flatties, jets and cats over the years. Every one of them took 100+ hours to become comfortable driving them. Several times I wore a rated PFD while testing.
People come out of boats at blistering speeds all the time wearing jackets, brainbuckets and shorts and a great number of them wave to the cheering crowds.
If anyone honestly says what happened last week was an example of safe boating (even from an R&D perspective), please post where & when you're going boating so I can go someplace else.
I'm sure the results of the official investigation will be known in the coming months.
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"I'm sure the results of the investigation will be known in the coming months."
EXACTLY! That is why I have not even attempted to introduce any theories concerning the cause of this tragedy. I'll admit to a few debates on the speeds these boats are attaining today; but at no time was I attempting to pinpoint this as a direct cause. If my posts came of that way, I sincerely apologize to the loved ones of our "boating brothers", as well as any of you on this board. It's sad that it takes something of this magnitude to get us talking about some of the things that have and are being discussed, but it's human-nature to put this kind of thing in the back of our minds with all the other stuff that "will never happen to me!".
Now, on to my point of this post. The statement I quoted at the opening of this post says it all in volumes! I know it's natural to speculate as to the cause, but the only theory that will carry any weight here is are the results of the "official investigation". I blindly jumped in on the debates without much thought of how our speculating might affect those involved in this event or the fact that something taken either verbatim or out of context, could be misconstrued and detrimental to the findings of the cause of this tragedy. I think it is time for us to remember "our brothers" and stop the speculation. Talk among yourselves, but quit putting it out in the open air for everyone to read. Our words could be hurtful to more than just the loved one's of Steve, Ken, Chuck,and Nelson. God rest their souls and bless their loved ones.
Please don't take this as a reprimand; it is not meant as one. Just a statement of MY feelings. Besides, who am I to reprimand any of you?
HTMLady and the other loved ones, thank you for sharing your information and feelings with us. For many, it is the only viable connection to this occurrence. It takes alot of intestinal fortitude to step up and talk about this during your time of loss. Or as we might say on the water, "YOU GOT GUTS!"
May God bless and always keep you in his heart! You surely will be in ours!
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I believe you are wrong.The speculation and discussion are things rarely talked about in regular boating conversations.The speculation helps drivers and passengers to understand what can happen and to correct the problem before it becomes a problem.It is a real wake up call,also It gives all of posters time to grieve out loud about the people who lost their lives while boating.Do you think that the families are the only ones who might need to grieve about this.The main reason I put these post is to give an opportunity for anybody who needed to speak out and feel that they could contrubute their wisdom or to grieve out loud ,could do so.If you would like to silence your self as your way of grieving that is your privledge.So speculate away............Sincerely Doug TJ
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just a reminder they were going out testing new props!On tuesday or wednesday that boat ran 149 on a gps and what ken lane wife told me they had saftey gear on when they ran 149.Friday was just a fluke , i don't know if anyone has ever watched off shore racing.Dual motor boats is a different world when it comes to boats flipping.Lets all be thankful that all the bodies have been found and god bless everyone
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I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
I have a performance rig that runs triple digits and have no desire to have ANYONE tell me how fast to go. I try to do it responsibly so I can enjoy it for many years to come.
Sit down and ask yourself why there are so damn many speed, seat belt, PFD, etc,etc laws on the books????? It's because people get hurt in high profile crashes! AZ had a law on the books a few years ago called "Reasonable & Prudent" for highway speeds. The problem is too many people know what that meant and too many people got hurt. It got removed from the books!
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
You're absolutely right, plenty of people are going to read this board. They'll see plenty of posts (From the performance boat community)favoring pushing the envelope and flaunting danger. What happens next??????
The Bureaucrats will decide we need more laws to protect ourselves from our lack of reasonable and prudent judgement. The speed limits will spread accross the waterways (Havasu)and next they'll put HP restrictions on boats, etc, etc. Wake up!!!!!!
I don't want to trade my rig in for a pontoon boat, but if this is the image that we're going to promote, wait and see what happens.
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Haulinazz, you are so right, if we don't regulate ourselves, you can bet your sweet ass that all of the do gooders in the land will invoke legislation and impose laws that will curtail boating as we know it today.
I have read every post on these and other forums since this tragedy happened, and seen all of the guessing as to what happened, well folk's the only ones that know that are not here and won't be, and that is sad.
Speculation as to what happened isn't what HA was trying to get across, it was the matter of responsibility, such as some form of safety gear for all involved, I love to go as fast as I can and have been doing it for years, in both drag boats and pleasure boats, and I do not want to see my chances to do it again legislated by the tree huggers and the life savers of this country.
Consensus being, go fast think safe, that's all.
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[QUOTE]We are all responsible for our actions!It is sad to think that a tragedy like this makes all of us think about saftey.I know from this HTM owner it has deffently made me think..
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Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
Let me ask you a question... How do you any of this? Were you there? Have you ever been to Castaic? It's not exactly what I'd call a short Narrow lake. If anything is ridiculous it's the 35mph speed limit that's in place there. As far as the rest, unless you were present at the time of the accident your speculating. Besides with the highwinds my "specualation" is that they were just out for a day of playing on the lake and a "freak accident" occured.. In which case you wouldn't get all "geared up" with lifelines etc...
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave2 (edited January 19, 2002).]
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Discussion, YES, by all means! But SPECULATION DOES NOT = DISCUSSION! I may be wrong. BUT that's my opinion and I'm damn well stickin' by it! Won't even attempt to address all the speculative talk that has been goin' on; as to address it would be to imply that I am an informed source, and I'm not. I was not there, I didn't see it first hand, and I haven't spoken to anyone who did. So, whoever said that there are only four people who know what happened that day and they can't tell us is correct; and whatever else is said is 95% BS!
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Well said Gig! None of us will ever know what exactly happened that day so we have no business judging any one involved in the accident.
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To Gigamurph
Who is judging the accident anyway.It sounds like you are the judge and if it meets your "OK" then we can talk about it.We are not children and you are not the dad.What is wrong with speculation.Isn't this board for free thinkers to express themself.Must you be the thought POLICE.Nobody said anything bad .Do you think the police will look at our post and to help them make out their final report?Lighten up.There is nothing on this post that you have any right to critisize.
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 20, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 20, 2002).]
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riverdave2 .I went to the lake the "quoteof the Narrows"is the north side of the lake away from the dam.That is were i saw the bouie in the water...We will never know what happened, lets hope we find out the details
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I sat here reading D T J's post and as I was, I was composing a rebuttal and it hit me that if I post my answer to him that I would be burdening the bereaved and others with the exact insensitivities that I have chosen not to. So I will limit my post to the parts that have no direct bearing on this tragedy. First of all, D T J, if you have read any of my "few" posts you'd realize that asking me to "lighten up" is like asking the Pope to act more Catholic! Laughable request at best. Second; I am not judging anyone or their posts. I just think that alot of speculation is counter-productive and possibly hurtful to the loved ones left to struggle with this. Third; as to your comment on me being the "thought Police"; it's about as informed as your knowledge of the events that unfolded on that fateful afternoon. My abstinence from posting any theories is an extension of a sentiment that RiverDave2 started in the "Appropriate Thread" on 1/15/02. I simply chose to take it a step further and not post anything in regards to what happened or the compitence or intelligence of the men involved, as the families and friends of these four brothers could also read the posts at that thread. MY CHOICE! As you said, this is a free forum. So in closing, keep dazzling us with your theories, it is your right on this board. I just choose not to be an insensitive s**t and subject the bereaved and, if they may read these posts, the people investigating the accident with my 95% BS. Happy boating and I hope to meet you on the water sometime!
[This message has been edited by gigamurph (edited January 20, 2002).]
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River Dave,
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
Point 1:4 People were killed in a crash and all of their bodies were recovered without a trace of safety gear.
Point 2: Witnesses claim the boats speed to be about 80 MPH. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and said 2-4 times the speed limit (70-140) which is the slowest speed I can imagine a 30" cat getting upside down for any reason. 140MPH is 10 MPH slower than the speed reported the day before (by the chest pounding mrpumps).
Point 3: There was a high wind advisory that day, I was in the area at the time of the accident and the wind was ripping!
Point 4: I've been on Castaic plenty of times. Only once with Steve and triple digit speeds is something that lake isn't suited for!
Point 5: The 35 MPH speed limit exists whether you or any other user of the lake agrees with it. It's like the speed limit on my street. If I think it's too slow and disobey it. I risk the possibility of getting a ticket. If I get too many tickets I lose my driving privileges. Get it???? Or do you have a problem with maturity and responsibility too?? If I break the law (speed) and hurt somebody, they usually consider it criminal. Did you ever hear of involuntary manslaughter??? When I was young and dumb I used to speed on the streets, thump my chest and act like a Jackass in general. I guess I was just lucky enough to grow up and start acting like a responsible adult before I got hurt, or even more tragic, hurt somebody else. Why don't you take your speed grievances to the authorities about Castaic. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to raise the speed limits now, right slick?
Is there something here you think is untrue or disagree with???
I don't think I've speculated at all.
If I WERE to speculate I would say that from the chest thumping that mrpumps was doing the day before. The group talked about the doubting souls regarding the speeds they achieved the day before. As a group, I would speculate they discussed all the immature name throwing that went their way and decided to show us all! The egos had to be raging! I wouldnt be surprised if they took a camera to photograph the GPS and post it for all to see on the web. Something then went terribly wrong! If they dont (and probably wont) recover the boat, then well probably never know if it were mechanical failure, driver error or a design flaw with a PROTOTYPE (less than 5 built) boat! We all read the posts the day before, so speculation is not only going to happen, its completely warranted!!!!! We were reading the posts the day before remember. Didnt you edit several of your posts? Were you ashamed of what you said? Not man enough to stand behind your words?
Hopefully this tragic series of events plays out through your mind when you try to open a can of whoop ass on somebody when youve had a few to drink and the conditions might not be quite right!
Any time lives are lost, especially in motor sports, a thorough investigation and sometimes speculation should be used to EDUCATE those continuing the sport TO NOT HAVE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN! Shit happens, but stupid shit shouldnt.
[This message has been edited by HaulinAZZ (edited January 20, 2002).]
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[This message has been edited by HaulinAZZ (edited january 20, 2002).]
What was it you said? Oh yeah. "Were you ashamed of what you said? Not man enough to stand behind your words?" RD2, by no means needs me or anyone else to defend him, but give ME a break! Still no definitive conclusions as to what happened; or what was being worn by the men; or if the weather conditions had anything to do with what happened. This is just what I was talking about in MY posts! This kind of talk is insensitive to the feelings of the bereaved, counter-productive, and at best, 95% BS! If you are on the investigative team, I hope you are able to come to a viable conclusion of what occurred that day; but why are you posting your "findings" here? Wouldn't they be better suited to appear in an official report first? If you're not on the investigative team, go away and come back when you have something that resembles some sort of compassion! INSENSITIVITY is not what is needed right now! Not from you, me, or anyone else! Have a heart!