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what is the adjustment like, and what does it do, I have hydraulic lifters and double valve springs, but I am just curious how it works, what the "lash" is and whatnot, I get a ticking sound when I run it out at high rpms and it looses a litle oil psi. could that be valve adjustment or bad lifters possibly, it runs strong as hell, but that ticking sound........grrrrr....
sounds like your loosing oil pressure at high rpm. what does you gauge read? you might want to be careful!!
Hallett, first you need to know if you have the adjustable or non-adjustable valve train on your 460. Most later model 460's (after about 1972) have non-adjustable rocker arms. If you have to adjust your valve train due to an aftermarket cam, you are stuck having to use shims below the rocker arm trunions(for more clearance), or slightly sand the trunion surface(for less clearance)that mounts to the pedalstals. To change your heads over to an adjustable valve train, you either have to have these pedalstals machined down and tapped to accept screw in studs and guide plates, or buy the Crane Cams retrofit kit, which comes with single guide plates and screw in studs. Though the later doesn't require removing the heads for machine work, it shouldn't be used for all out racing. Once you have the adjustable valve train, then you can adjust your preload to remove that anoying ticking. Ivan
Oooh! Ticking! Well, could be lots of things bud. "Lash" is the "slack" in your valvetrain. With hydraulic lifters this is kept at zero. Or supposed to be. With a solid cam you need to have a clearance between the rocker arm tip and valve for heat expansion. Basically, different metals expand at different rates and if you don't have clearance there the lifters, pusrods, rockers, and valves(mostly the valves) will expand and the valves won't close. Thereby burning them in short order. But, back to your setup, hydraulic lifters automatically adjust to maintain ZERO lash(or close to) during operation. This is done with oil and a piston insisde the lifter. Lifter "bleed down" or a term similar to it (depends on who you talk to) is what keeps the valves from being held open when everything heats up. With that said, adjust your valves like this: read a manual for the proper sequence for adjustment, then back the adjusting nut off until the pushrod spins freely with just your fingers. Then slowly run the nut down until you feel a slight drag on the pushrod. This is ZERO lash. Then tighten it another half turn. This preloads the lifter slightly so you won't have to adjust them for a long time. And it shouldn't tick. Alot of guys trying to avoid "pumping up" the lifters at high rpm set them at zero lash. But they do tick because the lifters bleed down a small amount. If your ticking doesn't go away after adjusting them and your oil pump is good, they're most likely bad. Oh yeah, make sure you don't have Rhoads or fast bleed lifters. They always tick. And you really shouldn't lose oil pressure at high r's. Well, I hope you understood my midday rambling because I don't think I did. If it was unclear just e-mail me and I'll try. I got up early this morning and it's a full hour past beer thirty!! Take it easy bro and you're one lucky bastard!!!!
as for the valve adjustment they should be set at zero lash plus a quarter turn with hydraulic lifters. the valve should be closed make sure the you dont have overlap and the valve is a little open or you will get valve float and loose power. not sure i explained it very well but its really not that hard. if you have a clicking noise at high rpm you should hear it at low rpm as well. you can track this down with a short wooden broom stick. stick one end where you think the noise is coming from and the other end in your ear. you will me amazed at what you hear. try the intake runners and then the exaust runners on each cylinder. good luck
hallet19 it is possiable that it is a lifter with my hyd lifter 460 you tighten the valve to 0 lash plus 1/2 turn, followng the firing order in pairs, that ticking sound my not be a valve at all, check your heat riser block off plate for a leak, if you have gone roller on this motor then you have to live with it roller rockers make noise and it will sound just like a solid lifter motor and yes it drives me nuts as well, the other thing it could be is depending on age and any saltwater use it could be a clogged oil passage to that lifter. and just how much is a little oil pressure loss a stock 460 will idle a 40 psi and run at 60 psi (10/40w) with a 80 psi dump valve built into the oil pump, so if your loosing pressure running check your oil pan and make sure it is not dented or collasped from underneath this will reduce the clearance to the oil pick up, and with a FORD this is vitial with the pick up in the front of the motor, your oil pan should have a nice semi rounded shape at the bottom not flat, oh yea one other thing I have run into is your going to hate this (lifter bore)out of round and with the canted valve design of a 460 ie.. valves not in a perfect row this can happen especialy if your running low on oil at higher rpms
Originally posted by Hallett19:
I get a ticking sound when I run it out at high RPMs and it looses a little oil psi.
Originally posted by mister460:
And you really shouldn't lose oil pressure at high r's. Yes you can andwill if you overheat the oil!
It's not loose valves even though they might like a little attention. When you run it out at high rpm's for a while the engine builds temp right? As the engine builds temp the oil is also getting warm and is loosing its viscosity due to the increase in heat. Then you see the gauge dropping pressure and start hearing the valves ticking cause the Hydraulic lifters cannot keep the adjustment up when the oil gets thin. Then you idle it for a while and see the engine temp drop and oil pressure start to rise again right? If this is the case look into adding an oil cooler it will keep your engine happy during the times your on it for a while and save your cash for gas.
[This message has been edited by gnarley (edited April 12, 2002).]
Originally posted by gnarley:
Originally posted by mister460:
And you really shouldn't lose oil pressure at high r's. Yes you can andwill if you overheat the oil!
[This message has been edited by gnarley (edited April 12, 2002).]
G, you are correct that it can happen, but it shouldn't. If your oil is heating up to the point that the lifters can't adjust properly, your oil is way too hot. Also, hydraulic lifters tend to pump up at high rpms rather than bleed down.
If your oil is heating up to the point that the lifters can't adjust properly, your oil is way too hot.[/B]
Unfortunately I found this out all to well last week testing, mine did just that! Just bought the boat used and knew it need some work but was a good deal. It's a 454 w I/O and hyd lifters that should have had the factory oil cooler hooked up but was bypassed and @ 4000 and up developed heat and lost pressure, & even shuts off the fuel pump for saftey. The OEM engine builder said that was to be expected without the oil cooler installed and to get it hooked up! I ordered the correct hoses to re-plumb the cooler and changed the over-heated oil & filter and am replacing the sending unit to be sure.
This thread just sounded like it was to close to home for me so felt I should share what just happened.
Keep that oil cool & youll be a happy dude
hallet 19 if you like and need a little help in reconizing what you have I'll be more than willing. I'm in glendale as you know
just call (818)502-0521brian
ok, here is the deal, Ben Alameda says the valves arent adjustable. And havakarl, I do hate you, I started getting this problem when I had a small ass pan and would run it out and loose oil psi. Then pan is new 10 quart and 15 50 mobil 1 syn. Ben says, since the motor runs around 120-150 degrees at any givin time, the oil is not getting hot enough, and now you guys are telling me opposite ???? what is a guy to do, I'm being torn in two different directions....AHHHH!!! Now he is saying go solid lifter, meaning, change the cam and rocker arm setup, what the shit!?!? Think I'm made of money ??? so now what ??? Arent I a pain in your guys asses ???
Dude, you're the actor making the big $$$. J/K. But I do get a kick out of reading your posts because I learn a whole lot more.
first you would not need solid lifters unless you really bump up the power next what type of exhaust are you running,headers or logs? third there are many ways to get your motor to heat up a little more. for instance a thermastat kit, gate vavles etc.
butwe need to know the type of exhaust you have because the logs preheat the water for the motor and headers thats a whole different ball game with the plumbing. ben will help you a lot but remember he is pricy and likes to do tricks to make performance happen.
running logs, and I need to get an oil temp guage to see where that is running. I had a good idea in the car today, since I don't have an oil cooler, cant I just pull the plug for a few seconds until some of the oil pan is submerged in nice cold water !?!? Maybe even throw some of the ice cold water from the cooler in there !?!? I am brilliant !!! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Hallet im runnin a bbf and no thermostat at all never have a problem even though motor is runnin cool i use a gate valve to restrict the water coming from the pump.As for going to solid you will need to make periodic adjustments and will neeed more work on your motor to take advantage of it.
A suggestion might be to install another hydraulic cam kit(new cam and lifters) price should be reasonable 100-175.00 .If you stick with a mild hydrauilic cam you should not need an adjustable valve train.
I just switched mine to an adjustable and it ran me about 250 i believe,rockers,guide plates hard pushrods and bbc rocker studs.And this is with the dove heads you have the newer ones i assume.
reason i suggest the whole new kit is because your lifters may be geeting old or worn.
for the most part, this engine is brand new, all the valve train minus the rocker arms are new, cam, pushrods, lifters, double valve springs, seals, retainers, timing chain and gears, so the parts arent old, and I have a block off valve, its the old valve off my beer bong.... yeah yeah, laugh it up http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif..... but I usually leave it open and that in itself restricts water from what it was before and if I close it right, it stays around 160-180 at speed, but 210 or so at idle, and I don't think that is good, or is it ? the temp difference could possibly warp shit I have been told, but I don't believe it really, figuring most engines run 210 stock, my mustang ran at 205 before I changed the therm to 180, but I know you get a better cylinder burn at higher temp too...am I rambling on ?? Bottom line is, I am thinking of changing to roller rockers, and new lifters, and if that does not solve it then f it .....BBC, here I come http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif yeah right!!
losing oil pressure at higher rpms is not normal oil should not be getting hot with that new pan also.I have grenaded a few motors myself bbf and sbc.One thing before they went was losing oil prssure as the revs increased.I'm taking my boat out tomorrow(90%sure)I will try to listen to my valve train at hi rpm and see if it makes any noise too.Sounds like you had the heads rebuilt so that could eliminate some possibilities.
Well, the reason it is loosing pressure at higher rpm's with an old engine is the fact that the bearings are going bad, they cant keep a tight seal and it bleeds off pressure, that is my understanding. So unless I wiped out the bearings, which are all new, I think my bleeding of oil pressure is due to the lifters. I hope this motor does not go south man, if it does, well, then I need to fix it but I will be really mad!!!
Sell the boat... buy a Chevy. Tough lesson, but one best learned with a running boat for sale with issues then another attempt at rebuilding this pig.
Well said....I don't know about the chevy part, but other than that http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif Where you been Wes, I called you lastnight man ??? Saw blade II, kind of cheezy, but awesome fight scenes!!
Buy a Chevy to solve your problems...?? Yeah right!! Do that and your problems have just started. Get someone who knows Fords, don't even mess with these Chebby mechanics, all they know is hammers and monkey wrenches. Thats why the magazines show pictures whenever they do a "How to make XXX HP from your BBC...."
Hallet i guess just run it til it drops.If i make it to castaic some time i will check it out i have been playing with fords in my boat for a while now have also done a bbc for my old drag car.honestly both makes are pretty similar it's all on how they are set up to run.
77,I was thinking about doing that, and if it goes, hopefully it does not break anything major, all the machine work is done, the block is decked and deburred, and I have the manifold and carb I want. I figure if it pops, I will just do the simple rebuild and repair whatever pops, no reason starting to replace lifters, then have it be something else, and do a partial rebuild every week trying to eliminate problems........aint boating grand, just when I thought the headaches would go away.....
let me know when your motor goes i can help you with a rebuild on the next one. Just get me a 12 pack when done.
something I learned is on ford is don't buy the highvolume pump. not needed. second it sounds like the pump is the source. even if it was new pull it and check the rotor and gear for tightness, should not bind when it rotates.
gear and rotor clearance: 0.001-0.004-in.
now hold the cover over half the pump body and measure the cleanance between the gearand rotor
now between gear and cover should measure 0.001-0.004-in if cast iron then 0.0025 in. is ok
if aluminum then 0.0015 in. is ideal use a feeler gauge to measure and this could solve the problem.
I'm running a melling hv pump so far so good.From what i have heard that with smaller capacity pans in jet boats is that the pump may suck to much oil and leave none in the pan.I have a 14 qt and front pick up have not had this prob yet.
yeah, I was having problems with loosing oil at high rpms and I think that is how I F-ed myself with my lifters now. I was loosing so much oil, I would hang valves, now I put a bigger pan it does not do that, just the ticking now, I think I just busted up my lifters, I want to change those real bad. What does mister 460 think, or you 77 charger?
you know hallet you brought up a good point.I f you were losing oilpressure with the previous pan you could have put wear on the bearings.since you were sucking dry at hi rpm(not a good thing)and the new pan would solve future problems not past if the damage has occured.
but wouldnt I know pretty soon that bearings went south ? it would knock or sieze wouldnt it ??
might be starting to go.with out hearing it is hard to diagnose but lifters rarely go out oil pressure just fills them up(to keep zero lash).a bad lifter will tick usually all the time.i have only had one lifter go bad on me.
what does ticking mean when it is sporadic, when I get all over it for a few seconds, it will start doing it sometimes. Then if it sits, it goes away, or if I just keep it at lower rpm's it will stop, and sometimes it wont do it at all..... weird, and it holds about 50 psi of oil at 3 grand, and about 40 at 4500, it drops a little, but not enough to be unsafe, but not what it should be doing, that is why I think a lifter is shitting out and bleeding of psi, or a bearing is bad and bleeding it off, I DON'T KNOW, YOU ARE THE PRO !! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
The lifters wont bleed off 10 pounds of oil pressure it really sounds like bearings to me.(losing pressure at higher rpm)normally the higher the rpm the higher the pressure.give me a call tomorrow 949 795-2719 mobil number.i am pretty busy right now.
Hopefully i can explain on the phone.
A lifter ticking sporadicly usually means there is air in the oiling system. Sucking the pan dry at high rpm would be the first thing I'd look at. BBFs have a head drain-back problem if the engine is mounted at an angle of about 6-7 deg. or more. The small drain hole at the end of each head isn't big enough to handle the flow by its self. Enlarging the 2 drain holes is a common practice and should be done when the engine is torn down.
Replacing the lifters is really no big deal. You can put new lifters on an old cam, just not old lifters on a new cam. Break in as you would a new cam (2000-2500 rpm for 30 min) and you'll be good. The lifetrs might not even be the problem. 40 lbs at 4500 rpm is BAD!!!! You need at least 10 lbs per 1000 rpm. Also, remember that diagnosing engine sounds is an art, not really a skill. A rod knock sounds like a little man inside with a little hammer. Valvetrain noise, well, the best I can describe it is a "clacking" noise at half the speed of engine rpm. If it's a sporadic ticking it could be rods. But that is a pretty distinct sound. BBF's don't usually eat mains. If you can't reach 77 my number is 760-985-1033. I can explain better while talking. Have a good one all!