Hilborn Injection Problems

[FlatRat]

O.k.,
first off we a .30 over 10:01 BBC,990's,comp .595 solid flat tappet.I finished putting a Hilborn stack Injection on.I called Hilborn to get a baseline set-up.They say with my size O pump (finally figured out why it wasn't pumping any fuel to the barrel valve...wrong rotation,hello) to run a 0.16 spring and 0.87 shim with a 105 pill in the primary and a 0.33 spring and no shim on the secondary.Now with all that said when I try and crank it up,it wants to fire but pisses fuel out the airbleeds,floods.Today I put in a 120 pill and same thing.Wrong spool?It's all new to me!I'm lost. :cry: If I get this thing going there maybe an outside chance of showing up at Burley.Any help would be...Dyno-mite!

[Morg]

Any idea where your barrel valve is at?
I am new to injectors but I can offer this.
From experience , make sure all of your butterflys are closed. Remove the stacks & use a very thin feeller guage to be sure all are closed. You can open up, but can't close if some are hung open.
I would then recomend using a leak tester to set you barrel valve. Block your secondary & connect to the main supply to the barrel valve. My crowers on alky are are 27%, probably wan't less for gas, say around 23%.
Double check the obvious stuff. (spark, timing, firing order)
Give her a squirt with a bottle & she should fire.
If not, I would look at the spool orientation, but the leak should tell if something is not right.

[Fiat48]

Well done, Morg. You win a cookie.
I can see it all now. "Morg's Fuel Injection".

[Moneypitt]

O.k.,
first off we a .30 over 10:01 BBC,990's,comp .595 solid flat tappet.I finished putting a Hilborn stack Injection on.I called Hilborn to get a baseline set-up.They say with my size O pump (finally figured out why it wasn't pumping any fuel to the barrel valve...wrong rotation,hello) to run a 0.16 spring and 0.87 shim with a 105 pill in the primary and a 0.33 spring and no shim on the secondary.Now with all that said when I try and crank it up,it wants to fire but pisses fuel out the airbleeds,floods.Today I put in a 120 pill and same thing.Wrong spool?It's all new to me!I'm lost. :cry: If I get this thing going there maybe an outside chance of showing up at Burley.Any help would be...Dyno-mite!
Something is wrong here. I'm trying to figure out your plumbing, and it seems "backward".......What are you calling primary and secondary? Lets try this, low speed, light spring,(idle about 7 lbs to open poppet) no pill. High speed, "shimmed spring" with "main" pill. Your numbers are a little confusing. Is the 0.87 shim actually .087, and the springs actually .016 and .033? Surely the "shim" isn't near 7/8ths of an inch! From my experience, the idle has to relief around 7lbs, which I think would be the .016 spring. Then the .033 spring is shimmed up until a given "high speed" pressure rating allowing the "pill" to be the controling factor of volume, and the "shim" controls the pressure when the pump is pushing 40+ lbs. Again, your numbers and description are somewhat confusing to "me"......But I know you gotta bypass at a low pressure to prevent idle flooding. Help me here Bob, there's just something not right with what he is saying. One more question, 2 or 3 by passes?..........Ray

[Fiat48]

I think we need a picture to really tell how it is plumbed.
But the main jet can.....should have a light spring...weak little sucker...just a few lbs. That spring is nothing more than to keep that bypass closed till the motor fires and then you are bypassing the jet size fuel flow(105 or 120 in this case) back to the tank. Should take just a few lbs to blow that off.
I was quite sure he was leaving out zeros on the spring numbers...just took it for granted.
But...what Morg said...regardless she should run on the bottle. Sounds like he really hasn't lit it off yet. Coudl have other problems..other things not right.
Now secondary....that is where we get in trouble around here. Crower uses a secondary....(and I am not talking high speed) but I am not sure Hilborn does...as a seperate circuit.
Now there is names and there is names...but I always called:
Main jet can (this is the light spring...the main bypass and a pill is in there.)
This is the main player in the system. The size of the main jet determines how much fuel goes back to the tank. The rest goes into the motor (basically).
Secondary can (This is a line off the barrell valve...to this jet can...and it generally has no pill....but many times a SLIGHTLY stronger spring and possibly a shim). This can only sees fuel up to 1/4 throttle and then it is blocked off by the barrell valve spool and is not a player after that. It is to lean part throttle...to send fuel back to the tank.
We get in trouble here a lot because some guys think and refer to this as what the high speed does.
High Speed can: This baby has a heavy spring in it...and will or will not have a pill or a shim in it depending on application....and opens at 45Lbs of fuel pressure or more....used to lean the top end...where the engine has less time to fill the cylinders and needs less fuel. Where the term "fuel curve is derived.
And barell valve setting:
Injectors dont have accelerator pumps...so extra fuel must be put into the motor to cover up quick throttle opening. So it is more of an idle mixture/accelerator pump combo setting.
But..she isn't even really running yet..so Morgs list should be checked.
And you and Gofast are better on these spring diameters as I always used a pressure tester to determine where the jet cans opened.

[Moneypitt]

With our crowers, the light spring just has a poppet, no pill. The heavy spring has the pill and is shimmed up to a given pressure to keep the fuel "spraying" while dumping the rest back to the tank. I call this one the main, or sometimes refered to as the "high speed" although its actually high pressure. When Gene Adams last had our system, he eliminated the barell valve bypass, saying we didn't need it. And we haven't. The pill #s, are they different for hilborn? Because our base line pill is around .150 @ 45lbs, with the .033 (I think. I've got the flow sheets out in the truck, I can double check) and shimmed around .200. It seems to me, he isn't bypassing near enough at idle with the .016 spring shimmed, even @.087.....I PMd him a way to make a set up using air to establish what pressure the poppets are coming off their seats.........Ray

[Fiat48]

With our crowers, the light spring just has a poppet, no pill. The heavy spring has the pill and is shimmed up to a given pressure to keep the fuel "spraying" while dumping the rest back to the tank. I call this one the main, or sometimes refered to as the "high speed" although its actually high pressure. When Gene Adams last had our system, he eliminated the barell valve bypass, saying we didn't need it. And we haven't. The pill #s, are they different for hilborn? Because our base line pill is around .150 @ 45lbs, with the .033 (I think. I've got the flow sheets out in the truck, I can double check) and shimmed around .200. It seems to me, he isn't bypassing near enough at idle with the .016 spring shimmed, even @.087.....I PMd him a way to make a set up using air to establish what pressure the poppets are coming off their seats.........Ray
Many ways to do it just like building engines. So Gene has done away with the "secondary"...the part throttle bypass...because you dont need it. O.k. I get that.
Hes running a little more low end pressure...and doing this by a heavier spring...which will result in the barrell valve being set leaner....than it would be by using the secondary system. Different way to skin the cat.
Pill numbers are same for Hilborn. Id say 150 real close for what you have...evident by how it is working.
Hilborn told Flatrat to do a 105. Reason? The last thing a fuel injector manufacturer is gonna do is burn you down on a system he does not have in his hand..a pump he does not know. And nozzles sizes between yours and Flatrats may very well be different.
Different ways to do it. Personally I have the pumps flowed so I know it is up to snuff. I use a light spring on a main jet can and get the fuel back to the tank...soon as she fires. I work my barrel valve and secondary to get the throttle response. And I tune the old fashion way....never had a system flowed.
Main jet till she runs best mph.
Convert main jet to sq inches of area. (area 1)
Fatten main jet 10 numbers. Record area. (area 2)
Put in high speed (jet determined by diff in area 1 and 2)
Play high speed opening till mph comes back.

[Jim Brock]

my base main jet is a 148 and use about 19o/o on barrel valve leakdown, so 150 is close

[Fiat48]

Gotta compare nozzle sizes all you guys have verses cubic inch of your motors before he goes changing to a 150 main jet.

[FlatRat]

O.k.
Yes, I did leave out some 0's.If I squirt fuel in the stacks she lights right off so I'm sure everything else is right.I will put together a flow deal and find out exactly where things the bypasses unload,barrel valve is set, the main jet can does have the light spring,secodary the heavy.Have to work on my lingo.Nozzles are # 9's.Butterflys are set.I'm not sure how to post up pics,but I can send them to someone to post.Thanks,I will keep ya posted on the progress.