"Food for thought: Give me a device that does EXACTLY what I tell it to do EVERY TIME against a guy who does not have such a device....and I have the edge."
Maybe. I think it depends of if you are adding variables or not. If you are adding things, it increases the complexity, and might not necessarily provide a distinct advantage. I personally dont see the benefit of adding timer based devices. If you change the setup -be it fuel, air or timers, you are still limited to a particular combination of those settings when you mash the pedal. In those types of systems, prior knowledge is required, and the fewer variables you have to use, the better. I tune with %'s on the blower with every 150ft of corrected air (ocassionally changing the main jet), adding timer's to the system could make it more complex and not necessarily better. IF, however, the devices are run off of sensors, and are changing your setup automatically, then yes, the advantage is huge. I guess it all comes down to how you like to race...
On a related note: Is the reason these devices are not allowed soley because of the safety concerns? Or is the rule based on competitive fairness? Would a modified EFI system be allowed per the rule book?
A little Birdie told me once, That the safety issue comes in to play real hard regarding throttle assits & related modifications.. In other words there is a better chance that the throttle could be kept in the WFO position in the event of an electrical problem.. I can easily see that if allowed...there would be more contrivercy trying to decide what is a safe setup than it would be worth.. It's probally a rule that should definetly be enforced & left alone...
Thats exactlly how we did it when I ran NHRA Super Gas / Super Comp. I had a 94 Lumina Pro Stock style chassis, with a 540" BBC. All out it would run in the 8.40's at 165. For every 160' change in corrected altitude my et would change by .010 second. My throttle stop ratio was 3-1, basically becomes a mathematical formula. For every .010 I wanted to speed up or slow down, I needed to change my timer setting by .030. Once you do your testing and record keeping, running the index becomes realitively simple. There are many weather station/hand held computers out there, including pager type that send real time weather changes, updated constantly, making it easy to change your settings just prior to staging. A large cloud is capable of making a significant change in corrected altitude, along with sitting on the holding rope for an extended period of time.
Mustoer,
Read this post above by Bubbletop 409. By having all the electronics you can bring the whole racing thing down to a science. After testing and learning he had it to a science right down to the hundreth of a second. With water you have a variable and that can always change. Even with all the electronics you are not going to be perfect. But with all the electronics you have eliminated MOST of the other variables. The more human element you can take out of the equation the better your odds are gonna be, correct? Its like a CNC machine vs a human with a grinder about to port some heads. Which is gonna be more exact? If the rules allow it then get after it! If not, well............
Mr Lot Lizzard, I dont know how to take you. You certainly stir the pot on this website.How do you obtain this info? I have been racing this class for a little while, and I am really curious to who you are. I myself, know that there are more than two boats competing in the Ihba with Illegal equipment. I am not saying that Tech is not sharp enough to see these items, but they are not going to address anything unless it becomes a saftey issue, or told to address an issue. I raced two guys in my class that have air cylinders doing something to there gas pedal assemblies, and what it does, I am not sure. I chose not to protest for various reasons. The main reason was this. I could beat either one regardless of what they had. My reason for falling short was me, not them. I also felt that no matter how you look at it, If you protest, you become labeled as a cry baby. I know that it is still wrong to allow this, therefore I was partially responsible for not protesing. Sorry, I want to race and not bitch. If we win, we win legally. So who the hell are you? Are you one of those guys that still puts his boat in to gear with a handle? maybe you should apply to become a tech official.
i remember about 7 years ago, one of our pce competitors installed an air operated t-stop. he was pretty excited with it, and showed it to us. i told him, "___, you can do what you want to (as in, we're gonna kick your ass anyway), and it's your choice 'cause i'm not saying anything, but that thing's illegal as hell. you're basically placing some type of slave between the foot pedal and the throttle - what could possibly go wrong?". the rule regarding electronics, pneumatics, etc., is solely addressing throttle operation - the throttle must be directly connected to the foot pedal with no adjustable slave in between. to me, use of these things is solely a safety concern, not a competitive edge. either way, if safety/tech determines these things are acceptable or unacceptable, i really don't care as it doesn't change my burden one bit. it's my job to beat 'em, regardless, and i'm not gonna be scared off by a couple little cylinders, t handle or no t handle. which is what i think joe is saying.
but... if someone is intentionally hiding something from safety/tech so they're not being open/honest over what could be considered a safety issue, i'd say something to 'em about that. i don't think joe's ever held back, and neither have i, when a safety issue is in question.
Electronics or not....you still have to cut a light.
Exaclty Tony and that's why we were as successful in 05 as we were. We average a 9.04 all year.
mustoer, you can only take so much timing and fuel away to slow a boat down, especially in a carbuerated application. If a boat can run .4 quicker than their index how do you slow it down consistently??? I definitely agree with you guys regarding electronic devices associated with the throttle but one question I have is why does NHRA allow it?? The magnitude of things that could go wrong may not be as high but I still wouldn't want to be in a Comp Eliminator or Super Comp (whatever it be) stuck at full throttle in the shut down area.
Exaclty Tony and that's why we were as successful in 05 as we were. We average a 9.04 all year.
mustoer, you can only take so much timing and fuel away to slow a boat down, especially in a carbuerated application. If a boat can run .4 quicker than their index how do you slow it down consistently??? I definitely agree with you guys regarding electronic devices associated with the throttle but one question I have is why does NHRA allow it?? The magnitude of things that could go wrong may not be as high but I still wouldn't want to be in a Comp Eliminator or Super Comp (whatever it be) stuck at full throttle in the shut down area.
You can override any electronic device via switch or brake pedal. Kinda like when you hit the brakes while on cruise control it shuts it off. My brother runs C-gas. He uses a throttle control that slow his car down over 1/2 a second. The race is won at the tree. I would assume it to be the same with boats.
Exaclty Tony and that's why we were as successful in 05 as we were. We average a 9.04 all year.
mustoer, you can only take so much timing and fuel away to slow a boat down, especially in a carbuerated application. If a boat can run .4 quicker than their index how do you slow it down consistently??? I definitely agree with you guys regarding electronic devices associated with the throttle but one question I have is why does NHRA allow it?? The magnitude of things that could go wrong may not be as high but I still wouldn't want to be in a Comp Eliminator or Super Comp (whatever it be) stuck at full throttle in the shut down area.
There seems to be some mis-understanding about the type of throttle stops currently being used in NHRA competition. The vast majority are what is refered to as a blade stop. They are another set of butterflys, mounted under the carb, and controlled by a timer, they can be operated by CO2, or an electric solenoid. The carb itself is still controlled by the drivers foot, so he does have overall controll of the situation. The throttle stop does nothing more than choke down the engines ability to injest air. As a side note, NHRA does ban the use of what are called stutter boxes, as a down track et controll device, and I could swear I heard more than 1 of those a couple of weeks ago in Phoenix.
That stuff is definetly a fine line, I think we all agree that if it gets out of hand we might as well be racing remote control, (which could be pretty cool).
My sentiments exactly to Joe Shelfo and Bob Prigmore. We need to beat them (those that use this stuff) with our SKILL. In my efforts to slow down to run 10's, I considered using new school stuff. Instead I chose to bolt on a 2 blade and adjust timing to slow it down. This makes it harder for me to cut good lights but that's my problem...and I'll keep after it.
I've heard some talk of more than one person considering incorporating a computer system the driver would activate (using the lights) that would do their starts for them (gear and throttle). Maybe someone is already doing this? Hopefully it won't come to that.
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